Note: This interview in the Weekly Wisdom Series originally aired on March 28, 2022 as part of the University Innovation Alliance’s Innovating Together Podcast, appearing live on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. The transcript of this podcast episode is intended to serve as a guide to the entire conversation, and we encourage you to listen to this podcast episode. You can also access our summary, along with helpful links and audio from this episode.
Freeman Hrabowski:
I was very quick to want to give my opinion and to start thinking about the solving of the problem, as opposed to knowing, as the leader, I needed to shut up. I needed to listen actively. This is one of the points in our new book that my colleagues and I are writing right now on this pre/post-COVID period. That leaders must learn how to listen, but it’s to listen with engagement. It’s active listening. You can’t do that if you're trying to talk and be the center of attention. While I didn’t think of myself that way – but if you're the one that always be out front doing that, you're not hearing the other people. Of all the things I can say, it was learning to be humble enough to be quiet, to be silent.
Bridget Burns:
Welcome to Innovating Together, a podcast produced by the University Innovation Alliance. This is a podcast for busy people in higher education, who are looking for the best ideas, inspiration, and leaders that will help you improve student success. I'm your host, Bridget Burns.
Each week, I partner with a journalist to have a conversation with a sitting college president, chancellor, system leader, or someone in the broader ecosystem, who’s really an inspiring leader. The goal is to have a conversation to distill their perspective and their insights gathered from their leadership journey. Our hope is this is inspiring, and gives you something to look forward to each week. This episode my co-host is Inside Higher Ed co-founder and CEO, Doug Lederman. Each week, Doug and I remember what our job titles are, and we have a conversation with a leader whose title is very clear. This week it’s a college president, to try to inspire you on a Monday morning with hopeful and insightful perspective to kick off the week, and help you be starting things on a boost. That’s why we call it Start the Week with Wisdom.
Doug Lederman:
And with this person, we should call it start the week with energy, and inspiration, and passion, because the number of conferences where he’s brought in to kick things off, and kick people’s butts and get them moving, is legion. It’s Dr. Freeman Hrabowski, President of the University of Maryland, Baltimore County. Soon not to be that for the first time in more years than most of us can count. Welcome, Freeman. Good to see you.
Freeman Hrabowski:
Thank you, Doug and Bridget. Yep, after 30 years, as of June, I will no longer be president of UMBC. Exactly.
Bridget Burns:
How do you feel about that right now?
Freeman Hrabowski:
I have never been more excited, for two reasons. One, the university’s doing really well. Students are performing. We're doing more to help them. Faculty are doing well. The legislature is being supportive of us right now, the governing legislature. They're bringing in the money. And people are looking at the model. So, I'm excited. And I'm excited about the next chapter, because I’ll get a chance to talk about that secret sauce at UMBC. So, I am more thrilled than ever, and more passionate about the significance of higher education than ever before.
Bridget Burns:
Well, you've left an indelible imprint. While many folks will point to what you've done as president, for me what really stands out is the role you've played as a leader who has taught other leaders, who has been a coach, and a supporter. Doug, you'll appreciate that my first interaction with President Hrabowski was, he was legendary in the ACE Fellows program for being the ultimate mentor.
But in particular, part of it was he was an incredible mentor, but also he’s someone who really fits you in. I met his fellow, and his fellow that year when he showed up for the first day to meet with Freeman, Freeman’s like, "Great. I’ll see you at 9:00 pm at my house. We're going to meet and do P90X. Bring your workout stuff." That was how they got time together, was doing P90X throughout the year. When I met his fellow at the end of his year, he was super buff. And he told me that he had to improve his cardio so he could keep up and ask questions of President Hrabowski throughout his time.
That was the first time I met him. The first advice he gave was around taking care of yourself in order to be a leader. I wanted to share that story, because I don’t know that any other leader in higher ed has that kind of a legendary history and presence and impact on peoples’ lives.
Doug Lederman:
I will not share it today, but at some point I can share the story about Dr. Hrabowski and my son, which has a parallel there. He’d agreed to talk to my son when he was in high school as a math major. I said would you be willing to talk to him? He said sure. Let’s meet at the tennis court. So, my son and this man played. My son was 17 at the time. He gave him a run for his money.
Freeman Hrabowski:
You guys have amazing stories. But please, we know each other so well. Call me Freeman. I'm just Freemen, okay. Go right ahead.
Bridget Burns:
Freeman, I guess we'll kick off by asking you what has surprised you about your leadership journey as president? Or what has been the most surprising thing about your career?
Freeman Hrabowski:
Two things. Number one, that the challenges of humankind are always there. You think, "As I get older, I won’t have to deal with these problems." No. They're always there. And you have the same feelings that you had when you were 25 or 30. You can question for a moment "Will I be okay?" and all of that. The other part is the wonderful experience of drawing on life, and what you've gone through in life to help you get through the next period. Most important, that the few words we give to people of encouragement can make a big difference. I’ve seen that over and over again. That’s what we talk about here a lot. How do we support each other as we go through these challenging times?
That has been amazing to me, how often a student can say something to me, and elevate my spirit. And I’ll say, "You have no idea what that means to me." And the student will say, "Oh, Doc, you say that to everybody." "No. I'm telling you. Your just saying that to me this morning made a difference." It's that idea that we connect to other people, and we either elevate them or we bring them down. That’s the message of this experience of mine in higher education.
Doug Lederman:
You are a rarity in having been at one institution for as long as you have. You're in some ways a rarity for having been a president for as long as you have. Thinking about what skills and attributes future presidents need to have, do you think that set of skills and attributes has changed? Or are some of the core things still there?
Freeman Hrabowski:
Some of the core things are still there. I say to new presidents in the Harvard program, and new administrators, authenticity and being honest. That’s always been important. And it’s as important today. Being honest, and owning your mistakes. The idea of clearly being able to say, "I made a mistake and I need your help." That notion of being confident that you'll do your best, but humble enough to know we all need help. All those things have always been the case.
I think the notion of transparency and honesty are even more important today because our society is going through this period when people question the truth. Now more than ever, we must not just be truthful. We must speak up for truth and evidence, and the idea that expertise matters. And most important, that we can get through this period. Having that optimism that says we can be realistic on the one hand. The other problems are hard and difficult. But we can get through this. Those are qualities that are more important today than ever.
Bridget Burns:
Like I said, you were a mentor to many ACE Fellows. You've also been teaching at the Harvard – I call it the baby president school. You call it the new president school. Which I call the ACE Fellows program baby president school, too. It makes me think that you have really important advice to give at this formative part of the journey before people start.
There seems to be no shortage of advice once people get going, and there are things people want you to do differently. When you're at the beginning of your presidency, and since you really do focus emphasis on that time about helping prepare people, is there anything that you recommend people do and focus on to help them be successful in their career, that they really need to start before they're president? Or at the beginning, rather than it’s something you can correct time?
Freeman Hrabowski:
Great question, Bridget. I talk about one’s health – physical, emotional, mental health. The jobs are so stressful, the presidencies, but leadership positions in general can be very stressful. Whether you co-found of an incredible higher education institution like Inside Higher Education, or whether you are running Innovation Alliance, or you're the president of a university, or provost. Whatever the position, we need to, all of us need to, focus on our own health. To know ourselves well enough to know what it takes to remain healthy. That means emotional, and spiritual, physical, mental health. Now people are getting that more. But I've been saying it for years, because I've seen what has happened to leaders who didn’t take care of themselves. You’d be surprised how many end up in very difficult situation, physically or mentally, just because of the stress. These jobs are stressful.
And that’s not just for new presidents. That’s for journalists, and leaders of all kinds at all levels. We need to take the time to look at everything from nutrition to physical health to having people to talk to about the challenges that affect one’s mental state. The more secure one is, the more one can say, "I need help." I don't know anyone who doesn’t need some support and help in that way, given what we go through.
Doug Lederman:
I'm curious because there is that intensified scrutiny that you talked about. Sometimes it can make people excessively cautious. I'm curious about that acknowledgement. What might be seen as weakness, I don’t think it is. But how can you give people confidence to be vulnerable? Curious how you would encourage people in that direction?
Freeman Hrabowski:
Very insightful question. We're getting ready to have what we call mental health day. It’s sponsored by the leaders of the campus. As I say in my book The Empowered University, it’s not about me. It’s about us. When I say the leaders of the campus, I'm talking about the shared governance leaders. Head of the faculty, senate, staff senate, the student government leaders said we want to have a mental health day. And a period of time when we focus on the challenges we're facing. They wanted me, and they've got some other leaders doing this too, to do a recorded video on what I'm doing to help myself to deal with my own challenges. And I'm at a point that I can say I've got high blood pressure, for example. Or that I use the Calm app. That I'm doing acupuncture. Jackie and I do tai chi. I'm walking 10,000 steps a day. A little running. I'm watching what I eat. I'm using the Noom app. I'm talking about all these things.
One of the questions is, "Why do you do so many things?" I said, "Because I've found the challenges are unbelievable. And I need to counter all of that stress with deliberate actions that will keep balance, that will give me the balance of being mindful." We're all multitasking. I’ve come to believe when you're multitasking, you're probably doing everything at less-than-best level because you're trying to do so many things. Because being mindful means you focus. For me, in these last years here, being more mindful of how I'm doing things, how I am appreciating what goes on. But how I'm trying to protect myself from the stress. I say all of that to say my level of security in talking about the fact that I need a lot of help has grown over the years. In the first years, I wanted to act like I was invincible, which was crazy. Nobody’s invincible. We all need help.
I say the first approach is to build healthy relationships with people. And to let people see they can trust you. That only happens when you go through some difficult times, and they see you're still yourself. You're not trying to hide things. You're being transparent. And it’s also the notion that you open yourself up to say, "Look at me as a human being. I am a leader, but I'm just a human being. I may say something that quite frankly is not exactly what I should’ve said." I think our president, who did a masterful job in Europe, for example, everybody’s focused now on those few words that he said. And the White House is dealing with that.
But I bring it up to say we're all human. We may say things that are not quite what we wanted to say. And the challenge is that people looking at the leader will immediately pounce on that leader and say, "Oh, how horrible." As opposed to saying, "Let’s look at the spirit of what the person’s saying. Let’s see if we can in some ways give that person the chance." If it’s cleaning it up, or rethink it, or say it in a different way. But that only happens as we help the public and our campuses to support each other in knowing no leader is perfect. That’s what I want young leaders to know. You're going to make mistakes. It’s not the end of the world. When you're honest and sincere, people will say just that. The person had the right attitude, the right mindset, did a great job. Yeah, there may be a few words that we have to think about. But let’s look at the whole pictures. That’s what happens as time goes on. That when I make these mistakes, people will say, "Yeah, but look at what he’s working to do with all of us." And that makes the difference. As times goes on, as we develop a trust – that’s the key word, trust – we're able to embrace our mistakes and learn from them. That’s what we all want to do.
Bridget Burns:
Wow. I feel like that’s a commencement address for us today to focus on, for leaders. Clearly learned so much about leadership, you’ve both observed great leaders, been a great leader, inspired other leaders, taught them, trained them. I'm curious about your own personal leadership growth and evolution. How you have changed throughout your presidency.
Freeman Hrabowski:
I’ll make you laugh. In my early years, I was very similar in my approach to my years as a student. I was always, in many ways, immature. Grasping something and probably not getting the whole picture. Even in math, I would get it. If I wasn’t careful, I’d lose it. And I’d get goose bumps during math because I didn’t take the time to savor the experience, and to think about what I was learning. In my first years as President, in the President’s Council, when we were discussing a topic, I wanted to be the student I had been. I was very quick to want to give my opinion, and to start thinking about the solving of the problem, as opposed to knowing, as the leader, I needed to shut up. I needed to listen actively.
This is one of the points in our new book that my colleagues and I are writing right now on this pre/post-COVID period. That leaders must learn how to listen, but it’s to listen with engagement. It’s active listening. You can’t do that if you're trying to talk and be the center of attention. While I didn’t think of myself that way – but if you're the one that always be out front doing that, you're not hearing the other people. Of all the things I can say, it was learning to be humble enough to be quiet, to be silent.
It's what you hear in what Burr said to Hamilton, and he didn’t listen to the advice. He said it for a different reason. I've used this in commencement speeches. Smile more, talk less. He said it for a different reason. Unfortunately, Hamilton didn’t listen, but the idea is there. Just to listen and reflect, rather than quickly to jump in. I needed to learn that, which was not a part of my nature as a student. I was always the obnoxious little kid wanting to give the answer. It took time for me to get to that point. And there are times now when my colleagues will give me a look like, "Shut up" [laughter].
Doug Lederman:
This is a time we want your opinion. We want you to speak the truth as you see it. What are the biggest things you think higher education as an industry, as a sector, as social enterprise, needs to do at this particular moment?
Freeman Hrabowski:
I appreciate it. This is what we're working on, as I'm working with colleagues to think through responses to that kind of question in this new book. The first would be we have to do a better job telling our story. It’s so easy for everybody to say, so many people are questioning the value of higher education. And there are many. First of all, most people don’t realize that only about a third of Americans have family that have gotten people through the four-year experience. Just start there.
Secondly, too few have had the AA, community college experience. For the majority of American families, no one has had those experiences. We don’t realize that. We all know people who are educated, and so we assume most people are. That is not the case, number one. Number two, we have to find a way. We need the language that will pull people in rather than language that is off-putting. We can be very condescending in the higher education community without realizing it, as we talk about the value of education. How should we be talking to people who have not experienced it in their families? How do we pull them into that work to say – for this reason. Show me a family who’s seen one or two of the kids go to college who doesn’t want others to have that experience, you see?
I'm saying we have more work to do. We should not be satisfied with ourselves. This experience that we give is remarkable. We transform lives. We know that. But at the same time, let me say something that’s controversial. When I'm talking to new presidents, I'm saying everybody wants to criticize Congress, and I respect public officials, but all the members of Congress, or almost all, 90-plus percent, 95 percent, are graduates of our institutions, and liberally educated people. And yet somehow our leaders are not talking to each other. I'm not going to go one side or the other. I'm just saying we have not taught those who have come through our experience how to figure out how to get people with different points of view, how to come to the table and talk it through. It’s very easy to say right and wrong. I get the fact. I have my own point of view, too. But I'm stepping above it for a minute to say we have more work to do on our campuses, in helping people to be different when they leave us.
I think too often, people who come into our institutions of all types, public and private, leave with the same points of view as they had when they came in. I think we ought to think about what does that mean about what difference we made? That’s one piece. That’s a big piece. Another piece is we say we know our students. I say we have much more to know about our students. It’s not enough to tell me my Black students, or my Latino students. They come from very different groups. We've got to bring more specificity to the work.
I was talking with my colleagues who are working with the Innovation Alliance. They are so excited about the work we're doing with the Finish Line people. We've been doing this Finish Line work for years. But the Innovation Alliance has taken us to a new level. We've got one of the Completion Grants right now. They're working on something we had not done before. Before we just said, "Oh, we feel badly that you've not quite graduated. Let us give you some money." Now they're working on this asset-based or strengths-based approach. Which means that we are changing the narrative to help returning students appreciate what they bring to the table. What they bring to us. And that’s a part of it. There’s a technical team at Innovation Alliance working with our colleagues to craft the narrative in order to rethink that framework and how we're presenting it. I'm saying we need to do much more of that. We tend to think, "Oh, poor people who didn’t graduate." No. These people are bringing life’s experiences. And they have so much to offer in the classroom. That’s just one example.
The other one I would bring up would be the role we as universities play in thinking about the future of our democracy. I think there’s so much more we can do. Whether talking about social justice in this country, or what’s going on in Ukraine right now, the question is what are universities doing to prepare the next set of leaders to help the general public to understand how we're connected across the world, across the globe? It has to be, I think, far more proactive, more intentional in this protection of democracy than we've been.
Final point that you’ll appreciate as somebody from the STEM area, we have to help people see connections across the disciplines. That sounds trite, but we tend to think people are either STEM people, or they're non-STEM people. So, the person in English has no connection to the person in technology. We need to be thinking about ways of having people connect the disciplines, as we think about solving the problems of humankind. We talk about it, but we’ve got to put more teeth into that work. We need more substance as we think about curriculum, teaching and learning, the research that we do of connecting to the larger community.
Bridget Burns:
You got to several of our questions in there. We wanted to benefit from your advice and your coaching per sector. I guess I would end on two questions. The first, I just want to know what you're going to miss the most? I don’t think you're going to go anywhere necessarily. You'll be around.
Freeman Hrabowski:
Right.
Bridget Burns:
People romanticize the presidency. Some people focus on the trappings of the presidency. Don’t really have a full appreciation for the challenge of it. We just talked quite a bit about the challenges associated with it. As someone who has a full picture, what is it about this role and this work that you're going to miss the most?
Freeman Hrabowski:
There are two sides of it. I'm going to be really honest with you. Every day I wake up, and look first, before looking at the Times or Post, I look at the Baltimore Sun to make sure UMBC is there in a positive way, not a negative way. Because you never know when your university’s going to be in the media. And you have no control over it. There’ve been days when I awaked and said, "Oh, my goodness. What is this?" You don’t want to see that. That’s just being honest.
But what I will miss in a wonderful way has been, I’ve got students. I love my students. They are constantly in my life. The good news is I've got thousands of alumni. Literally hundreds who write to me regularly, and I will always have that. And of young mentees, not just from this campus, but around. And I will miss walking around on campus feeling like it’s the Plaza of Nations at the UN, with people from all over the world. And having people speaking French to me, or whatever, or giving me some good news, or some challenging news. I will miss that, because I don’t plan to be on campus.
What I will say is what I take with me is the spirit of the possibilities. That’s what I love about UMBC. It is all about the possibilities of what people are doing, and talking about ideas. And I will continue, with colleagues and students, to have those conversations. But just being in the midst of it. I’ll be working with other universities and doing some things at Harvard and with some national agencies. That will be wonderful work. This 35 years on this campus, 30 as president, all this period has allowed me to be immersed in this environment of ideas. And it has been absolutely fascinating.
Bridget Burns:
The last question I would ask, then, is last time we asked you about the best advice you’ve received. If you have more that you’d like to share, that would be valuable. I am curious about who gave you advice, and what was that advice, about ending your presidency? I know a lot of presidents who are in transition, or just have transitioned. I always try and connect them. I match-make them. You need to talk to so-and-so because he’ll give you some good advice. But I'm curious about the advice that has served you as you are wrapping up your last chapter at UMBC?
Freeman Hrabowski:
I have enjoyed talking to people who have left the presidency. From Drew Faust, watching and talking to Shirley Tilghman, as examples. Wonderful people. But I would say this, and this is about people in this phase of their lives. I told you, the Walter Sondheim who’s on the statue on our campus lived life seriously. Don’t take it seriously.
What people have said to me is, "Freeman, don’t ever think you're not replaceable." [laughter] I don’t care who we are. When you leave, other great things happen. Other great people come along. I don’t have any concerns or worry about that at all. This is an empowered campus. There are so many leaders. People say, "Don’t worry you're not there anymore?" Oh, no. Not at all. No. What we have as our values are a part of our DNA. We're going to take care of our students. We're going to support young faculty and staff. And laugh. I'm always saying in higher education we take ourselves so seriously. The natural look in higher ed is one of cynicism. The analysis. I get that.
But no, we need to be able to laugh. That is the human experience. Of course, cry. But laugh. That’s what I've heard, and that’s what I'm taking with me as I'm leaving my colleagues. People are looking a little sad, and I said, "Oh, no. Even if we might cry a little bit because it’s a change, change brings about this moment of bittersweet. But no. Laugh because we are so fortunately to have had this experience." It’s attitude. That’s what I would say. It’s so important for everybody, whether you're still on campus or leaving the campus. Having the right attitude of optimism, of hope. This is what makes us leaders who can connect meaningfully to other people.
Bridget Burns:
I don’t think that there is anything else that someone could say to better set someone up to have a wonderful week. We so appreciate you joining us today. We're very excited about your next chapter, and grateful for the contribution that you've made to the field. We are all better for your having been in higher education and for the legacy that you leave. We've seen enough about you to know that you're about to probably go do other things that are also exciting. And we can't wait to see what those are, because they will likely also positively benefit students in the sector.
We wish you a happy Monday. Doug, as always, good to see you. For those of you at home, we will see you back here in two weeks. Talk to you soon.
Freeman Hrabowski:
Keep hope alive. Keep hope alive. [laughter]
Bios of Guest and Co-Hosts
Guest: Freeman Hrabowski, President, University of Maryland, Baltimore County
Dr. Freeman A. Hrabowski, III, has served as President of U.M.B.C. (The University of Maryland, Baltimore County) since 1992. His research and publications focus on science and math education, with special emphasis on minority participation and performance. He chaired the National Academies’ committee that produced the 2011 report, Expanding Underrepresented Minority Participation: America’s Science and Technology Talent at the Crossroads. He was named in 2012 by President Obama to chair the President’s Advisory Commission on Educational Excellence for African Americans. Dr. Hrabowski serves as a consultant to the National Science Foundation, the National Institutes of Health, the National Academies, and universities and school systems nationally; and on several foundation boards. With philanthropist Robert Meyerhoff, he co-founded the Meyerhoff Scholars Program in 1988 for advancing underrepresented minorities in science and engineering. Dr. Hrabowski is the author of Holding Fast to Dreams: Empowering Youth from the Civil Rights Crusade to STEM Achievement, and co-author of Beating the Odds: Raising Academically Successful African American Males, Overcoming the Odds: Raising Academically Successful African American Young Women, and The Empowered University: Shared Leadership, Culture Change, and Academic Success. As child-leader in the Civil Rights Movement, he was prominently featured in Spike Lee’s 1997 documentary Four Little Girls, on the racially motivated bombing in 1963 of Birmingham’s Sixteenth Street Baptist Church.
Co-Host: Bridget Burns, CEO, University Innovation Alliance
Dr. Bridget Burns is the founder and CEO of the University Innovation Alliance (UIA). For the past decade, she has advised university presidents, system chancellors, and state and federal policy leaders on strategies to expand access to higher education, address costs, and promote completion for students of all backgrounds. The UIA was developed during Bridget’s tenure as an American Council on Education (A.C.E.) Fellowship at Arizona State University. She held multiple roles within the Oregon University System, including serving as Chief of Staff and Senior Policy Advisor, where she won the national award for innovation in higher education government relations. She was a National Associate for the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education, and has served on several statewide governing boards including ones governing higher education institutions, financial aid policy, and policy areas impacting children and families.
Co-Host: Doug Lederman, Editor and Co-Founder, Inside Higher Ed
Doug Lederman is editor and co-founder of Inside Higher Ed. With Scott Jaschik, he leads the site's editorial operations, overseeing news content, opinion pieces, career advice, blogs and other features. Doug speaks widely about higher education, including on C-Span and National Public Radio and at meetings and on campuses around the country. His work has appeared in The New York Times and USA Today, among other publications. Doug was managing editor of The Chronicle of Higher Education from 1999 to 2003, after working at The Chronicle since 1986 in a variety of roles. He has won three National Awards for Education Reporting from the Education Writers Association, including one for a 2009 series of Inside Higher Ed articles on college rankings. He began his career as a news clerk at The New York Times. He grew up in Shaker Heights, Ohio, and graduated in 1984 from Princeton University. Doug and his wife, Kate Scharff, live in Bethesda, MD.
About Weekly Wisdom
Weekly Wisdom is an event series that happens live on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. It also becomes a podcast episode. Every week, we join forces with Inside Higher Ed and talk with a sitting college president or chancellor about how they're specifically navigating the challenges of this moment. These conversations will be filled with practicable things you can do right now by unpacking how and why college leaders are making decisions within higher education. Hopefully, these episodes will also leave you with a sense of optimism and a bit of inspiration.
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