Note:
This interview in the Weekly Wisdom Series originally aired on August 2, 2021 as part of the University Innovation Alliance’s Innovating Together Podcast, appearing live on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. The transcript of this podcast episode is intended to serve as a guide to the entire conversation, and we encourage you to listen to this podcast episode. You can also access our summary, along with helpful links and audio from this episode.
Michael Rao:
Well one of the things that's really cool about being at VCU is watching students after the last 12, 13 years take enormous leaps forward in their lives in just three or four years, right? Kids who come from small towns, their parents didn't go to college? And now they're in a lab where they're discovering a cure for a particular disease, right? Or they're part of a really cool innovative solution to a major housing problem for people who have insufficient resources and continuously face eviction, that sort of thing.
Bridget Burns:
Welcome to Innovating Together, a podcast produced by the University Innovation Alliance. This is the podcast for busy people in higher education who are looking for the best ideas, inspiration, and leaders to help you improve student success. I'm your host Bridget Burns.
Doug Lederman:
Today we're joined by Michael Rao, who is President of Virginia Commonwealth University. Welcome, Dr. Rao. VCU is his fourth presidency, I believe. And got an early start cause he looks young and he is. And worked at a range of institutions, and I think has a lot to share with us. So thanks for being here.
Michael Rao:
Oh, thanks for having me. It's a real honor. I have great respect for the University Innovation Alliance and the work that you're doing because it lines up with my values. I'm really excited to be here today.
Doug Lederman:
Great, so we actually wanted to start with a little bit about your background. As I said, I think you became a president at 28 at Mission College in California, and then have moved through a series of institutions. And I guess I'm curious about your arc as a president, and A, whether you set out to be a president and just got there early? And then B, sort of how you've seen the arc from a community college to a research university with a medical school and major research ambitions?
Michael Rao:
Yeah, so it's all just kind of happened, to be honest. I didn't have a plan. I grew up in a really small town with a lot of very wise elderly people who became my friends. So I spent a lot of time talking with them. And they used to have a frequent line, which was, "Don't wait to be our age before you know what matters." And what matters to me was how am I going to use this life that I have to really help other people do better in their own lives? And to achieve what we all think of as the dream in this country, and we talk about it a lot. But we have a long way to go to make sure that everyone has a chance at achieving it. So honestly, Doug, I didn't have a plan. I did like higher education, so when I got to college I was pretty excited about it.
I said, "I really think this is cool. All these people like to learn, and this is a lot of fun." There was one day when I was at the University of South Florida, which was the closest to my home, and didn't have as many students in those days at all as it does now. But anyway, the long story made short is that I saw the president and I said, "Hmm I wonder what he does?" And soon after that, I ended up working as assistant to the president at the University of Florida in a Ph.D. program and got a better idea of that. And then went to Mission College as a dean after being a consultant for a few years. And then the faculty kind of recruited me and said, "Hey, listen, we want you to be our interim president." And I said, "OK." And then I applied for the job and got it, and the rest you know.
Bridget Burns:
Wow, that's a whirlwind. And especially for as many leadership roles that you've had and the impact you've created. I'm just super curious about – I mean, I would normally ask what prepared you. But it sounds like just throwing your hat in, and – or throwing your name in the hat and just, like, doing it. What do you think – for advice that you would give other people who are thinking about having a long career trajectory in leadership and higher education, what advice could you possibly give them? I mean you must have like a million things that you share.
Michael Rao:
Yeah, I mean, the most important thing, Bridget – that's a really good question, because I think a lot of people get caught up in status and the title. And the resources, whatever. The bottom line, though, is if you stay focused on what you really want to achieve as a human being among other human beings, most of the people listening are enablers. They're people who want to help other people. Stay focused on that. And if it's meant to happen, it'll happen, and it'll happen in the right place at the right time. And really, that's what I did is I focused on that. I thought higher education was the great enabler of what I consider to be the American Dream. And I really wanted to be certain that I was a part of that. And when I did go to Mission College, and I became so focused on that, and starting new programs in Silicon Valley that lined up with a lot of the employment there at the associate degree level and such.
I think people said, "You know, this guy, I think, is leading." And I didn't know I was leading. I guess I was, and I was letting my values guide me. So start with your values, and then I think the rest all kind of happens. Combine it with hard work and make things happen for other people. Focus less on yourself, more on others, and more on results, so what's the impact of what you're doing. Forget programs and all that, do those programs, do things for other people, and in volumes. We are so far behind in terms of the number of people that we need to take care of and get to the next level in their lives. We've got a lot of work to do. And if it means you're going to be president or provost or whatever, it'll happen. If it doesn't, then I think you got to be happy that you're making a difference in other peoples' lives.
Bridget Burns:
That's great. Just – Doug, I would ask a quick follow up, which is I – given that you have served such different types of institutions, and you've really kind of ascended the ladder of higher ed where you're now, like, working daily with – our prep conversation really focused on the work you're doing with your medical school. But starting where you did, I'm sure you've run into a bit of higher-ed snobbery along the way. And I know that for those of us who have been around higher ed search committees, there is this perspective that if you work at one type of institution that you need to be able to know how to run this kind of institution. And I'm just curious, you seem to disprove that. I'm guessing you've run into a lot of it. And what I would ask is, can you speak to those folks who have that idea that you have to have been a president of an elite research one university in order to be a president of a elite research one university?
Michael Rao:
Sure. I mean realistically, one of the things I love about what you are doing at the University Innovation Alliance is I think you're really trying to release that hold that has been out there on this whole sense of what constitutes elite, and prestige, and all that. It's for a very small population, and the bottom line is that what we're doing is focusing on the vast majority of people who have needs. And that kind of started with a book that had been written by the former president of the American Association of Community Colleges years ago. I think it was Dale Parnell. And he talked about the neglected majority, and that was something that really opened peoples' minds to, you know, "Hey, why are we here?" And I think it applies to all levels, including major research universities as well.
And commitment to access is absolutely critical. I think what made the difference, though, Bridget, to your question, is really just that there was a board in place that was interested in results. And apparently from what they told me, I was talking more about what I would do instead of who I am and why I'm so qualified. I just didn't get into that. I just talked about what I would do with this great place to try and make it a place that became more meaningful and impactful to society. And to the people who make society, so I did talk about a graduation rate. And we more than achieved the goal that we put in place. I talked about research volume. We did come up a little short, but not very short of the goal that I had set. And I talked a lot about medical care and the importance of safety net hospitals in shaping a society in which healthcare has to be one of those human things that you've got to have access to no matter what your situation is from an economic standpoint.
And we do all the tough stuff. I mean transplantation, and we've had filled COVID units. We call them medical respiratory ICUs and such, so all those things were things I talked about. And honestly, I didn't talk as much about myself. If they asked me directly I would say yes. In fact, there were a few times where a couple of them were like, "Well, tell us about you." And so, Doug, I answered that – my question – the way I answered yours. I told them where I grew up and all of that. And whatever happened, it worked, but I think the status stuff, you got to watch out for it. And all you'll do is continue to draw this line between "elite" and other institutions.
Doug Lederman:
You referred earlier to sort of the ways in which higher education sort of collectively isn't meeting the need. And you started by talking about the desire to try to have it – to talk about how much need there is. What are the ways in which you think the sort of higher education ecosystem is falling short, and what do you think are the things that institutions like yours and others need to do to move the needle more?
Michael Rao:
Well, one of the things that's really cool about being at VCU is watching students after the last 12, 13 years take enormous leaps forward in their lives in just three or four years, right? Kids who come from small towns, their parents didn't go to college. And now they're in a lab where they're discovering a cure for a particular disease, right? Or they're part of a really cool innovative solution to a major housing problem for people who have insufficient resources and continuously face eviction and that sort of thing. So it's really very, very important, I think, for us to rethink all of this. For right now, the bachelor's degree is the standard. I think it's really important that we show people pathways and not take pride in those who were able to figure it out could get through and get a degree. Those who couldn't, tough stuff. We got to end those attitudes, right?
We've got to put in place warming – warm, welcoming pathways for everybody, no matter who they are, no matter what they are, no matter where – what their backgrounds are. And we've got to release the hold on these current elitist rankings that are trying to influence everybody about what the best colleges are. Well, you know, the truth of the matter is the best colleges are not necessarily just the colleges that have students with the highest SAT scores. An SAT score, an ACT score can be a useful thing, but it is not the best determination of how well a student will ultimately do. Ultimately what matters is what's going to happen after college. What are you going to contribute? What's the impact that you're going to have on society and other people? You need the multiplier effect through these college graduates, right?
So you need more of those to come through our places. The other thing I would say harkens back for me to a conversation I had with two young men in the library at VCU about maybe eight or nine years ago. They said, "Dr. Rao, can we talk to you?" And I said, "Sure." And it turned out to be like a 30-minute conversation on some evening. And one was a computer science student. The other was an engineering student. And they said, "Can we try to influence you on the college experience?" And I said, "Sure, absolutely." And I thought they'd talk about sports or something. They did a little bit, but what they really said is, "Can college be less of sitting in a classroom listening to a talking head, having to memorize what we hear, and then regurgitate it back so that we can forget it a year later?" And I said, "Well, what would you do?" And they said, "Where we learn is where we're engaged. Where we have a sense of why we're learning what we're learning, and how it benefits other people, and how it's going to benefit me in my ability to really be a major influence on society."
I use different words than they did, but that's exactly what I got. That totally changed all of my goals. So I left that meeting with those guys, and I reset my goals. Not immediately, but in the next year I'm, like, what they told me is really important and very, very valuable, major influencers.
Bridget Burns:
That's great. Well, so delighted to hear that – a bit more about how you look at leadership, how you think about your career arc, and the responsibility of being a president. I'm also curious about some of the nuts and bolts of the presidency. And I think that there is a lot of mystery around the role, and how you people actually manage to get through the day. So I want to ask you if you could, would you mind sharing, especially for a day that you're going to have a really intense – like say your board meeting. Do you have a morning routine that sets you up and optimizes you for something that's going to be really challenging? And if you could share just a snippet of what kinds of things help you be a president on a hard day?
Michael Rao:
Wow, I don't think I've ever been asked that question before, Bridget. It's a really good question. If you're interested in the answer, for me, it's really knowing that that's coming. And I try to know it's coming a few days in advance. I don't always – I'm not always good at this. Some days because it's been so wild just before a board meeting or something – and I have two boards. I have a whole system board and a university board, so I have this happen frequently. But getting ahead of it, knowing that I've exercised like the days prior. You can't usually exercise the day of, cause you're starting so early. Making sure that I have had what I call breathing time. My wife is a saint, and she's been a wonderful partner. She's a lifelong meditator, and I do it. I have learned to meditate. I have learned to create a space where nothing can get in for some amount of time, and I'm just breathing, and I'm just connecting with my own soul, which usually brings me closer to my values right after I come out of a meditation. This is not weird stuff. I think ten years ago, it was hard to talk about it because people though, "Oh, how odd are you?" But this is really about being human and recognizing that there are a lot of things that can create stress, and they will create stress if you let them. But you got to continue to lead, right?
Leading is about organizational movement, making the organization change to come together with the people who it benefits, right? This is all about a mission, and our mission is transforming people's lives. In the case of a health system, it's saving peoples' lives. It's stopping them from having to live with cancer, and so on and so forth. So it's big stuff. And you have to get back to that and not get lost in a lot of the stuff that people will do to try and distract you. And so that peacefulness that you have to have I think every day is really, really critical.
Bridget Burns:
That's great. Super helpful, thanks for sharing that.
Michael Rao:
Sure, I've never shared that before. I don't think anyone has ever known I meditated, but I do.
Bridget Burns:
You'd be surprised how many other presidents do. But yeah, they only frequently will tell me when we're chatting. But I was like, if people want these kinds of jobs they should probably know what kind of survival skills you need to be successful.
Michael Rao:
Yeah, it's either that or you'll grind your teeth down to nothing.
Bridget Burns:
Yeah, I know that you and many other presidents are back to back all day. And yet the whole time you're receiving email, so I am curious about when you actually carve out time to respond and do email because it's often – that's a black box.
Michael Rao:
No, that's a really good point. And so in my case, it – so Bridget, it was really different pre-pandemic. Pre-pandemic, I didn't really get to email very often until like the middle of the day and the end of the day. And I would always tell folks, "If it's like really, really important, just text me so I know, right? Don't wait for me to get to the email to get your surprise." So with the pandemic, though, because it became more 24/7 and I'm guilty of this, I just told you a story about how much I try to breathe and all of that. And I was not always so good through this pandemic about that, and have tended to check my email more, and so on and so forth. Sometimes I wish I hadn't, because it can be very distracting.
But much more now than before, and I've tried to ask my office team to help me carve out time to do that. But I'm also asking people to make sure that I know if I need to know, and I'm more of a texter. Actually, I'm just more of a phone person, period. And so if it's really that important, let's talk and think through this together, so that we can kind of strategize on how to deal with something that might be coming up. And what I'm getting better at with time is – better, I'm not great but I'm getting better – is how does this all relate, Mike, talking to myself, to how you're going to help students and patients, right?
Doug Lederman:
How are you thinking about – I mean, given what you just said, how are you thinking about this moment we're at? I mean, it seems like this last few weeks has been – I've seen more people taking a breath than I think has been true for the 15 or 16 months that we've all been running a marathon as if it were a sprint. And we've had a few minutes, weeks maybe, to sort of take a pause. Do you have a sense of how – I mean, how are you looking at the next six months? And do you think it's going to be both in terms of how you work, in terms of how you're feeling about your people, and whether your people have had a chance to re-energize or at least recover? I don't know, how are you thinking about heading into this fall and the sort of task at hand?
Michael Rao:
Yeah, with really great excitement. I'm very excited to see more people. I have missed them. Although I continue to round in the hospitals a couple of days a month, you know, everybody has to be there. So I've seen everybody there. But the university had – definitely, the population had dwindled, and the population that was there was definitely in and out and then not staying, and that sort of thing. So very different, the library was as empty as I had ever seen it about a year ago. Over time it increased with people, including in the summer terms that we had great enrollments for. But I'm looking forward to it. I think we all have to, Doug, really get back to why are we here? We're here to shape and develop the lives of a large number of people, of varying ages, but a large number of people.
And a lot of people, we know, require that the energy of being present with somebody else from whom they're learning. I talked with a student just yesterday who said to me, "I learn so much more effectively if I'm in that same room with the professor." And I said, "Well, what if you are not in that room but in, like, a Zoom room?" And he said, "You know, I got to tell you, people are on their phones." He said, "More than half of the students don't have their cameras on, and they lose interest." But I said, "So being in person makes that much of a difference?" And he said, "It makes all the difference in the world when you are 18, 19, or 20 some year old." It probably does to some 40-year-olds. I know I need to see people, and I'm really looking forward to it. So I think people may have to decide whether or not being present and being in higher education is really what they want to do.
Because the other thing I found, Doug, it's – I'm just going to say this because it's a fact. There were a lot of people who enjoyed the not having to go to work in the pandemic. And I think there are many who are saying, "I want to keep it that way. I want to stay at home." If you do, you know, you may have to think about what you're going to do, because this may not work out for you in some circumstances. There will be a lot of online learning that I think we'll go forward with in the future. That may be a place for people who want to do that, stay home, that is. But for a lot it's not going to be.
Bridget Burns:
That's great, I think that the – that whole debate around return to work, return to the office, I think it's a really fascinating one. Because you look at other sectors, and you're hearing that there is going to be these mass resignations. That people are – they've changed their values and their priorities and they now want – we want something different. And I'm sensitive to that as a boss. We've always been remote, though, admittedly. I don't know, if we return to an office, it would be an imaginary office. But if we are hearing from students that they want in-person, and we know that the future is institutions designing more around the needs of students, we're really at – I don't know if other sectors feel as much of a conflict.
But we really are at a conflict here because our employees are burned out, and have seen that work-life balance to some degree creep back because of working from home. But if we're really going to design around the needs of students, that's in direct conflict, and I'm just glad that you have a thoughtful approach to respond. What I'm seeing is a lot of presidents who just send out a memo that says, "Get back in there," and I think people – they can understand if you can make the case. But like just saying you have to go back to your office because, I just don't see that being productive.
Michael Rao:
No, and I think those blanket kinds of things are useless. What you really want to focus on is what is your job, and what are you doing, and where do we need you? Where do students need you? Where do the employees who may depend on you need you? And listen, if you can be more productive at home, and achieve greater balance in your life, and the job is fitting to that, then do it. But if you are a nurse, we need you to come in. If you are a – teaching freshman courses, we may need you to come in. There may be some courses we could give you online, right, for students who choose to be online. But we do need to have a real measured approach. And we need to look at everybody's situation individually.
And sometimes, Bridget, we may have to say, "Hey listen, you are super talented. You have done – you do one of the best jobs that I have ever seen or that we have ever seen online. We need you to keep doing that, and here is what we need you to be teaching." And a lot of research too can be done from home as well. We know that, and it's effective. It's the impact that matters, right? It's not necessarily the process. And that's what I get worried about in higher education sometimes, especially larger institutions, is we get lost in process. Does it matter, though? Think about the student, think about in my case the patient, and if it matters, then do the right thing for them.
Bridget Burns:
That's great. I guess one last question, this has really flown quickly. The one last question that we would ask is what's the best advice that someone ever gave you that has served you in your career? And who gave it?
Michael Rao:
Well actually, there are a couple people that come to mind. That's a great question. Do you remember John Hitt, who was the president at the University of Central Florida? So John was one of my favorite friends. John was always so encouraging. I would be – I would often confide in John that I am navigating this ridiculous political situation with a narcissistic personality, somebody who wants what they want. And it has no good to my institution at all, and he was so calm. And he would say, "Well, here is how you ought to go about that. Don't let them control your emotions into it. Here is how you try to get them to focus on what you ultimately need to achieve for the sake of your mission." So he was really great at that.
And then I had a chair of my board who unfortunately died while she was chair of the board, and I miss her terribly. She was a lawyer, and just a tremendous source of wisdom. And she so politely would say to me, "Mike, I see you doing so many administrative things. And you're really good at details, and you get everything done. But I just want to tell you as an older person that, at some point, you won't be able to do everything. And you need to learn how to delegate more. And you need to learn how to focus more on what you're really great at, which is envisioning the future and focusing on what matters with regard to students and patients." And in her honor I do that much, much more. And I can't say I did it as well before her, but I definitely do it better.
My wife had been saying the same things for many years. Monica had been saying, "You're going to do that?" And I'll say, "Well yeah, somebody has to do it." And she's like, "That's a big place, aren't there other people who do those things?" And I was like, "I don't know. I just have to do it." But anyway, I finally listened to Phoebe.
Bridget Burns:
Well, that's great advice to leave on today. But thanks so much for a wonderful conversation, and for Doug leading – joining us on this journey. And for folks at home, we will see you next week. And we hope you have a wonderful one.
Bios of Guest and Co-Hosts
Guest: Michael Rao, President, Virginia Commonwealth University
Michael Rao, Ph.D. became the fifth president of Virginia Commonwealth University and VCU Health System in 2009, the first Asian-American president in the university’s history. Under Dr. Rao’s leadership, VCU’s place among national research universities continues to rise. Guided by its current strategic plan, Quest 2025: Together We Transform, the university is focused on student experience, strengthening educator and researcher compensation, increasing national prominence through research, and improving patient experience. VCU educates and graduates more Pell-eligible and first-generation college-going students than its Tier III counterparts in the commonwealth combined. Dr. Rao has overseen one of the largest expansions of VCU’s footprint through the construction of living-learning environments, academic meeting spaces, and state-of-the-art clinical and laboratory facilities. He serves as chair of the Virginia Bio+Tech Partnership Authority and the Coalition of Urban Serving Universities. He is also is a senior executive advisory committee member with the Northern Virginia Technology Council and vice chair/chair-elect for the American Council on Education. Dr. Rao’s career in higher education began in California in 1992, when he became president of Mission College. At the time, he was the youngest college president in the nation. He went on to serve as chancellor of Montana State University - Northern and president of Central Michigan University. A tenured professor in the VCU College of Health Professions, Dr. Rao holds a bachelor’s degree from the University of South Florida and a Ph.D. from the University of Central Florida. He and his wife, Monica – a watercolorist and graphic designer – have two sons.
Co-Host: Bridget Burns, Executive Director, University Innovation Alliance
Dr. Bridget Burns is the founding Executive Director of the University Innovation Alliance (UIA). For the past decade, she has advised university presidents, system chancellors, and state and federal policy leaders on strategies to expand access to higher education, address costs, and promote completion for students of all backgrounds. The UIA was developed during Bridget’s tenure as an American Council on Education (A.C.E.) Fellowship at Arizona State University. She held multiple roles within the Oregon University System, including serving as Chief of Staff and Senior Policy Advisor, where she won the national award for innovation in higher education government relations. She was a National Associate for the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education, and has served on several statewide governing boards including ones governing higher education institutions, financial aid policy, and policy areas impacting children and families.
Co-Host: Doug Lederman, Editor and Co-Founder, Inside Higher Ed
Doug Lederman is editor and co-founder of Inside Higher Ed. With Scott Jaschik, he leads the site's editorial operations, overseeing news content, opinion pieces, career advice, blogs and other features. Doug speaks widely about higher education, including on C-Span and National Public Radio and at meetings and on campuses around the country. His work has appeared in The New York Times and USA Today, among other publications. Doug was managing editor of The Chronicle of Higher Education from 1999 to 2003, after working at The Chronicle since 1986 in a variety of roles. He has won three National Awards for Education Reporting from the Education Writers Association, including one for a 2009 series of Inside Higher Ed articles on college rankings. He began his career as a news clerk at The New York Times. He grew up in Shaker Heights, Ohio, and graduated in 1984 from Princeton University. Doug and his wife, Kate Scharff, live in Bethesda, MD.
About Weekly Wisdom
Weekly Wisdom is an event series that happens live on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. It also becomes a podcast episode. Every week, we join forces with Inside Higher Ed and talk with a sitting college president or chancellor about how they're specifically navigating the challenges of this moment. These conversations will be filled with practicable things you can do right now by unpacking how and why college leaders are making decisions within higher education. Hopefully, these episodes will also leave you with a sense of optimism and a bit of inspiration.
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