Note: This interview in the Weekly Wisdom Series originally aired on October 30, 2023 as part of the University Innovation Alliance’s Innovating Together Podcast, appearing live on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. The transcript of this podcast episode is intended to serve as a guide to the entire conversation, and we encourage you to listen to this podcast episode. You can also access our summary, along with helpful links and audio from this episode.
Garnett Stokes:
Looking across the country, I realized that things have really been upended by impact of the pandemic, and we can't seem to get away from that. People have different expectations now for what it means to actually work on campus, and many people are still struggling from just the aftermath of this. So, there are a lot more behavioral health and mental health issues, a lot more concerns about isolation. So, what we've started doing – and intended to start it earlier and then COVID came, and so much of what we intended to do got put off till later. But I think for us, it's been just trying to begin the measurement and the understanding of how our faculty and staff are engaged. Because without knowing a baseline, it's hard to know where to go from there.
Bridget Burns:
Welcome to Innovating Together, a podcast produced by the University Innovation Alliance. This is a podcast for busy people in higher education who are looking for the best ideas, inspiration, and leaders that will help you improve student success. I'm your host, Bridget Burns. Each week, I partner with a journalist to have a conversation with a sitting college president, chancellor, system leader, or someone in the broader ecosystem who's really an inspiring leader. And the goal is to have a conversation to distill their perspective and their insights gathered from their leadership journey. Our hope is that this is inspiring and gives you something to look forward to each week. This episode, my co-host is Inside Higher Ed co-founder and CEO, Doug Lederman.
Doug Lederman:
And today's guest is Garnett Stokes, who's president of the University of New Mexico, been president since 2017, previous stints at Florida State and the University of Missouri. Provost there, also stepped into interim presidencies there. So, a lot of experience, different levels of higher ed administration and look forward to having you on the program today. Thanks so much for being here.
Garnett Stokes:
Thank you. I'm delighted to be here.
Bridget Burns:
President Stokes, we're really excited to have this conversation with you. I wanted to first kick it off by pointing out that, just as Doug said, you have really risen to the occasion and stepped into leadership roles at multiple campuses, and this is a time when we need people willing to not back down when they're asked. But in both cases, you were already provost executive vice president, you had a big job, you didn't need to say yes. And I'm just wondering if you can help us think through your thinking, basically, when you see a challenge like that, when you're presented with, we need you to do this extra thing, that's much harder and you don't have to. And our hope is that you can – we're hoping that our audience will someday possibly be asked – you can help give them perspective on how to process, process and think through those challenges and that opportunity.
Garnett Stokes:
Thank you. That's an interesting question. When I think about my role as Provost at Florida State University, I can tell you that at that point in my career, I was not at all certain that I wanted to be a university president. And I certainly was taken aback by losing the person who had hired me when he went on to Penn State. But I will say that as soon as I realized that he would be leaving, I saw it as a growth opportunity for me. I really thought that it would be an opportunity for me to understand what it means to actually be where the buck stops in terms of decisions. So that was really how I approached that decision at Florida State. I knew that institution had quite a lot going on at that time. It was kind of amazing to step in and have so much hit you all at once, but I really felt like that I had been there long enough that I could provide the stability the institution needed to continue moving forward.
And I think that's what they're looking for when they name an interim. So, I felt like it was a tremendous experience for me to be able to serve in that role. And it gave me perspectives that I really wouldn't have had as a provost. So, whether I went onto a presidency myself or continued as provost after that, I believed that it would strengthen my ability to serve higher education.
Bridget Burns:
That's great. And we've definitely heard that where folks would never consider the job or think they can't do the job, and that the interim role demystifies it, and it really – well, I guess it's not as different, or I can – and it's interesting that often when you look nationally, you see interim roles, they are not always used to cultivate a pipeline of future talent. We sometimes use a bench of people who've already done the job, and we're missing such an opportunity to instill confidence and opportunity for a whole new generation of potential leaders. So, I love that you didn't back down, but also that it did exactly what we thought it would, which is give you the perspective you could do this job.
Garnett Stokes:
That's true.
Doug Lederman:
It's interesting. I'd love to get a little bit more sense of what you found once you – having not expected necessarily to want a presidency. What did you find once you got into the role that persuaded you presumably to go on and actually seek it yourself? The only – Before I get to that though, the one thing, and I've been thinking a lot about this, is about how little succession planning higher education does. And it's weird. There've been a handful of cases recently and we're talking about doing a story about it, about places that are actually, literally deciding, "Oh, we think we have the successor already in place." It doesn't happen that way. Usually, it's starting from scratch practically each time, and there's often an interim in the running, or as frequently, or an internal candidate at least in the running. But I don't know, it's something I've really been thinking a lot about. But anyway, what was it once you got into the role that persuaded you that this was something you would want to keep doing on a more permanent basis, maybe somewhere else?
Garnett Stokes:
Well, I didn't immediately decide that that was what I wanted to do. I spent several months in the interim presidency, faced a lot of challenges there, but also just incredibly, I really enjoyed some of the external work, the work with donors that I was engaged in, the work with alumni, which I was able to do to a much greater extent in the interim presidency. So that was a good thing to realize that I enjoyed that aspect of the work, but I also then left Florida State to go to another provost job at University of Missouri. So, I was excited about a new opportunity at a Midwestern university. I had spent my career in the Southeast, so obviously I didn't jump immediately to a presidency, but I think it's just because the provost job at Missouri was appealing to me. And it wasn't really until I was at Missouri that I decided that yes, in fact I would like to pursue a presidency. And so I think it was having experience under my belt at two institutions, also having faced quite a number of issues at both of those institutions, that led me to think if I can get myself through this, I can certainly do a presidency.
Bridget Burns:
That's so great. And I do think, one, it's really valuable that you have been a strong leader at multiple institutions, because we have too many who have not experienced the different complexities and that if we spend too much time in just one institution, we believe the story of the place. And it's really helpful that you went to multiple places that have had multiple – You know that the story we tell ourselves about why we can't do something is not actually true. And you definitely bring that to the University of New Mexico, but the fact that you bring that kind of deep bench and that you've been frankly tested by fire, you've got this resilience that I definitely see in your leadership style. I wanted to go to your leader –
Garnett Stokes:
[inaudible 00:08:09].
Bridget Burns:
Oh yeah, go ahead. If you wanted to respond to that.
Garnett Stokes:
I was just going to say that it's interesting that I had been at the University of Georgia for most of my career. I was there more than 30 years. And I remember being asked by a provost when I was getting ready to do a higher education administration leadership program, whether I'd ever consider leaving the University of Georgia. And I said, "Well, I really haven't had to." But now I look back, and I think when people are truly planning to take on leadership roles, the decision to go to different institutions can be an important part of the growth that allows you to be more successful.
Bridget Burns:
Yeah, that's great.
Ray Magliozzi:
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Bridget Burns:
Well, I wanted to go a little further in that I'd like to know about your leadership style. I'm sure people tell you. You've picked up anecdotes or hear people talk about your leadership style, but I'm just wondering, is there any one person who you initially picked up the most about how you wanted to lead? I think that that can be any number of examples, but I'm just wondering where you learned the most about leadership that has informed your style?
Garnett Stokes:
It's really difficult to think about one person that may have influenced my thinking about leadership. But my field is industrial and organizational psychology, and I was a faculty member in a graduate program and where I had a colleague who in fact studied leadership. And when I think back on my thinking about leadership, one of the things that I talked to Karl Kuhnert about was authenticity. And so, I think that it's natural for me to be authentic, but that, my conversations with my colleague led me to think more about how important that was. And over time, I would say that I've learned something from really every leader that I've ever worked with, whether it was the program chair when I was a faculty member, whether it was the head of the department, whether it was the dean that I worked for while I was department head, and then later as I watched college presidents at my own institutions and elsewhere. So, there are things you learn. It's interesting, the things you learn to do and the things you learn, "I'm glad I didn't have to learn that lesson myself."
Bridget Burns:
That latter one is particularly helpful.
Doug Lederman:
We've been thinking about it and actually writing a good bit about authenticity. And given how closely presidents and other leaders are watched, every move, are there limits to one's ability to be authentic? And if so, is that difficult? Do you have to be selective about what sticks and what stays and then maybe what things you might sand off or stop doing or avoid doing because of potential risks?
Garnett Stokes:
It's a fascinating question. When I think about authenticity, I really think about trying to bring my full self to conversations with people, whether it's in a group or whether it's with talking to individuals. But I do realize that there are limitations to information that you share and at times that I've had to learn how much to share in conversations, in public, etc. So, I think authenticity is perhaps more complex than most people realize.
Bridget Burns:
And plus, we all, like, there's a certain level, but also you're a boss, Doug, you know, that you're not really actually friends with. You want to cultivate that relationship with your employees, but at the end of the day, "I'm still a bad guy." Just kidding. Not really. I'm sure you're wonderful. But yeah, you do have to remain to some degree a little guarded, which is unfortunate. So, I did want to know about what has been surprising to you about your career. I am just curious if 40 years ago, if you told yourself you can be the president of a major research university and have led multiple other institutions, how blown away, how surprised are you in that moment?
Garnett Stokes:
I would say the fact that I have had this career is the biggest surprise of all. I certainly didn't grow up with an expectation that I was going to even go to college. I'm a first-generation student. My parents certainly had their high school degrees, but they really didn't talk much about even going to college. So, to realize that every step of the way something pushed me to decide to go to college, something pushed me to decide to become a faculty member. Often it was circumstances in my life or sometimes at later stages it was guidance, where for example, a colleague and a mentor said to me, "Well, you're going to be the next head of psychology here." And that was at the University of Georgia. It's like, "Really? I hadn't thought about it." And so, when I look back, I realize that I would've never dreamed this for me. I had a different thought about what my life would be like when I was young, and so that I would say the entire career is the surprise.
Bridget Burns:
That's great. It also makes me wonder about [inaudible 00:13:49], I'm sure psychology and leadership, I'm sure that you have to sit in meetings all the time where you'll keep your poker face, but knowing your expertise and your discipline, it's got to be fascinating is all I'll say.
Garnett Stokes:
Fascinating is the right word at times. I think a lot of people do ask me if my field of study in industrial organizational psychology has helped me as a leader. And one of the things we know about expertise is that you sometimes don't realize where it's coming from. Once you have it, it's just the way you operate. And so, I don't always realize the extent to which my background leads me to look at a university and its organization in the way that I do. I think my focus really is on trying to create success in the organization and in the people and building workplaces where people can thrive. My dissertation was on life, work and non-work satisfaction, so that thinking about people's lives and wanting them to be successful at work seems like something that has been something that matters to me for a long time. And I realize it does lead to certain approaches to higher education.
Doug Lederman:
It's interesting. I was going to ask you, following up on one strand of it about the difference, I was going to ask what you studied and which types of organizations, and I was going to ask you about the ways in which universities and the higher education environment maybe differ and what's special about that. But actually, what you just said seems particularly timely given all the concerns we've been talking about, and we've been writing about, and institutions are focused on about higher education faculty and staff satisfaction and burnout and all the other issues. So I'm curious, what's your, I don't know, sort of diagnosis and maybe some thoughts on what steps you've taken to try and work on employee satisfaction, particularly at a time where, I don't know, we see people increasingly asking hard questions about the values of their employers and whether they're able to carry out the work, that focus on mission in people's desire for what they want from work. I don't know. That's a broad question, but I'm just curious, what's most acute for you right now?
Garnett Stokes:
Well, I will say that I can only speak for my current institution in terms of the challenges that we face, but looking across the country, I realized that things have really been upended by impact of the pandemic, and we can't seem to get away from that. People have different expectations now for what it means to actually work on campus, and many people are still struggling from just the aftermath of this. So, there are a lot more behavioral health and mental health issues, a lot more concerns about isolation. So, what we've started doing – and intended to start it earlier and then COVID came, and so much of what we intended to do kind of got put off till later. But I think for us, it's been just trying to begin the measurement and the understanding of how our faculty and staff are engaged. Because without knowing a baseline, it's hard to know where to go from there. And so that's what we've been doing.
We've done some engagement surveys with the intention of really intervening to help our faculty and staff feel good about where they are, and feel productive and recognize their impact and how much we value them. That's the struggle, is the communication of people's value and what we know from, and it's no surprise, one of the biggest factors that influences how people feel about their work is what is the supervisory relationship? And so, having the resources to make sure that we are helping supervisors know how to lead, that takes intensive work and putting the resources in to try to help supervisors better serve as leaders. We don't necessarily do a great job training people on how to lead and its importance in the institution goes down to every level of the organization. And so, kind of intervening there is something that I think we're not all in the same place, but I'm recognizing just how important it is.
Bridget Burns:
That's great. And I'll say, Doug, that I have talked to folks on the ground at a variety of institutions, and the reputation that President Stokes has developed is someone who listened on this issue immediately and didn't need to be convinced. And there are a lot of leaders who it was kind of like, "Hey, buck up, work hard," didn't take it seriously, but that she took it seriously immediately and people that definitely felt that at the University of New Mexico, which the truth is no one's figured it out completely. It's not figured out. But I do want to underscore this issue of not teaching people how to lead and manage. It is so huge because, how many talented researchers do we have to lose who because they are exceptional researchers, they get great grants or doing great work, and then they are put in charge of some people but not trained to support them, and then their center gets shut down? We keep doing this where we lose incredible potential, because we have not figured out that actually we're taking people out of their zone of genius and we're now asking them to do a thing that is frankly the hardest thing. Managing is the hardest thing. It is. Nobody likes it. So it is, I just want to underscore that could not be more important for us to actually invest in that.
Garnett Stokes:
Well, I do think some people do enjoy it. That's what attracted me, was realizing that I actually enjoyed it. But I know in academia it's considered the dark side. They still talk about the dark side when one is willing to take on leadership roles. But I, frankly, found it rewarding to be able to help people succeed. That's what leaders are able to do. It's, for me, one of the most fulfilling aspects of the work, the ability to pave the way for other people to get things out of their way or to get them the resources and to help them achieve their own dreams.
Bridget Burns:
That's great. What are you most proud of as a leader? Is something we wanted to, there's a lot, you've accomplished a great deal and you've led in so many places. Is there one moment for you that is kind of like the thing that you're like, "Yep, that's the one I'm most proudest of?"
Garnett Stokes:
I don't immediately come to mind – there doesn't immediately come to mind one thing that I'm most proud of. I think in general what I am most proud of is that I have not backed down from making a couple of tough decisions. And that I'm proud of, that I faced some things head on, took the bruises and the bumps for doing it and kept going. And I'm proud of the fact that I would not have thought early in my career that someone would have characterized me as steadfast and just creating stability. I wouldn't have thought of that. And yet over my career, I've discovered that that is what many people see in me, and I appreciate that, and I'm proud that those are some characteristics that people appreciate.
Bridget Burns:
Those are great characteristics be known for.
Doug Lederman:
In the few minutes we have left, maybe switch shift to the questions we usually close with, which are around the advice that you've gotten that has most helped you in your career. And then if it's different, the advice that you tend to give the people in our audience, who are the potential successors to you and this generation. I don't know if those things are the same or different, but interested in both of those.
Garnett Stokes:
Well, A, I would say I learned early on, someone stepped in, I was an assistant professor, I had a graduate student who at the last moment was asked to teach a class just as he was about to take his preliminary exams. And so, I got fired up and I went to the person who made the assignment and I let them know my displeasure. And my department head took me aside and said, "You know, Garnett, there are better ways to actually get things done and convey something." And I think that was an early and important lesson for me that yes, things happen, but how you handle them really matters. And that was a piece of advice. Other advice I've gotten, though, and that I really counted on, it's really made a difference to me, is to try to leave options open. The truth is, the world of higher ed is small and people don't forget.
It is amazing to me how small this world is and how burning bridges can really be harmful to one's career. Those relationships that you don't cultivate or those conflicts that you don't manage well can come back to bite you later. And so, I often convey that to, I did that with my graduate students, and then I certainly talk to people who are aspiring to leadership roles. I will talk about that small world, about the importance of really demonstrating your integrity, being honest with people and not hiding what your motives are for something, explaining the decisions that you make and how important that can be, and maintaining relationships even when they are by their nature and structure rocky and competitive.
Bridget Burns:
That's great. Those are good pieces of advice for folks. My last question is about if there's a book, or I don't know if it's a movie or anything that you find yourself most often recommending when people are looking for leadership guidance or trying to navigate and you're trying to give advice. Is there anyone that you found yourself handing out more often or saying, "You should probably take a look at this one book?"
Garnett Stokes:
That's interesting. I don't often read the leadership books that much. I do encourage people to look at the books that are out there. If they're looking at higher education, there are a number of books out there that are helpful in understanding the ways different presidents navigated leadership. And so, I just point people in the direction of trying to understand the conflicts and the challenges that other leaders have faced so that you just learn from the experience of others rather than having to create it all yourself. In my career, though, what's been most important for me is trying to figure out strategies for being more effective in getting the work done. And so, the things I end up reading are getting things done and how to have good habits that allow you to balance – In these jobs it's about trying to find a way to stay physically healthy and mentally healthy and get the work done. And so, right now I'm reading a book on how we form our habits and things like that are the things that have made a difference for me.
And every leader has their own particular set of issues that they need to work on to be more effective. Some things come naturally, some things don't. And so, I think it's really about figuring out what are the things that each person needs to work on, and finding examples of that that one can learn from books or movies, etc.
Bridget Burns:
I don't know if you're talking about tiny habits or any of the habits stacking books, but yeah, no, optimization, it's so difficult with email and calendar. That's the actual stuff. That's what you can have that people need.
So, thank you so much, President Stokes. This has been delightful to get to know you a bit more and to learn a bit about your leadership style. By the way, when you said to, instead of reading leadership books to learn from the lives of those leaders, I was like, basically she's saying read Inside Higher Ed, where Doug's out there telling stories of what not to do, what to do. Just kidding. Anyway, it's been lovely to have you, and as always, Doug, thanks for being a great co-host, and for those of you at home, we will see you next week. Take care. Thank you.
Bios of Guest and Co-Hosts
Guest: Garnett Stokes, President, University of New Mexico
Dr. Garnett S. Stokes became the 23rd president of The University of New Mexico (UNM) on May 12, 2018, the first woman to hold that office. She set the tone of her administration with a statewide listening tour to frame her presidential priorities of promoting campus safety, supporting student veterans, and advancing UNM’s mission as an R1 university. In keeping with her career-long commitment to building outstanding leadership teams dedicated to student success, President Stokes has recruit diverse and talented leaders nationwide. Since her arrival, UNM has received the prestigious Carnegie Community Engagement Classification, and its student body includes one of the highest number of Fulbright awardees in the country. Her 2019 UNM Grand Challenges initiative harnessed the system’s resources to focus on finding solutions in three key areas: Sustainable Water Resources, Successful Aging, and Substance Use Disorders. Grand Challenges teams have generated more than $20 million in funding and continue implementing education and community outreach throughout New Mexico. Prior to joining UNM, Dr. Stokes served as interim chancellor, provost, and executive vice chancellor for academic affairs at the University of Missouri; and as provost and executive vice president for academic affairs and interim president at Florida State University. She has also been a long-time faculty member, chair of the department of psychology, and dean of the Franklin College of Arts and Sciences at the University of Georgia. A first-generation college graduate, she earned her B.A. in psychology from Carson-Newman College in Jefferson City, Tennessee, and her M.S. and Ph.D. from the University of Georgia in industrial/organizational psychology. She is married to Dr. Jeff Younggren, is a forensic psychologist and retired U.S. Army Colonel. They have two children and four grandchildren.
Co-Host: Bridget Burns, Executive Director, University Innovation Alliance
Dr. Bridget Burns is the founding Executive Director of the University Innovation Alliance (UIA). For the past decade, she has advised university presidents, system chancellors, and state and federal policy leaders on strategies to expand access to higher education, address costs, and promote completion for students of all backgrounds. The UIA was developed during Bridget’s tenure as an American Council on Education (ACE) Fellowship at Arizona State University. She held multiple roles within the Oregon University System, including serving as Chief of Staff and Senior Policy Advisor, where she won the national award for innovation in higher education government relations. She was a National Associate for the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education, and has served on several statewide governing boards including ones governing higher education institutions, financial aid policy, and policy areas impacting children and families.
Co-Host: Doug Lederman, Editor and Co-Founder, Inside Higher Ed
Doug Lederman is editor and co-founder of Inside Higher Ed. With Scott Jaschik, he leads the site's editorial operations, overseeing news content, opinion pieces, career advice, blogs and other features. Doug speaks widely about higher education, including on C-Span and National Public Radio and at meetings and on campuses around the country. His work has appeared in The New York Times and USA Today, among other publications. Doug was managing editor of The Chronicle of Higher Education from 1999 to 2003, after working at The Chronicle since 1986 in a variety of roles. He has won three National Awards for Education Reporting from the Education Writers Association, including one for a 2009 series of Inside Higher Ed articles on college rankings. He began his career as a news clerk at The New York Times. He grew up in Shaker Heights, Ohio, and graduated in 1984 from Princeton University. Doug and his wife, Kate Scharff, live in Bethesda, MD.
About Weekly Wisdom
Weekly Wisdom is an event series that happens live on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. It also becomes a podcast episode. Every week, we join forces with Inside Higher Ed and talk with a sitting college president or chancellor about how they're specifically navigating the challenges of this moment. These conversations will be filled with practicable things you can do right now by unpacking how and why college leaders are making decisions within higher education. Hopefully, these episodes will also leave you with a sense of optimism and a bit of inspiration.
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