Note: This interview in the Weekly Wisdom Series originally aired on November 1, 2021 as part of the University Innovation Alliance’s Innovating Together Podcast, appearing live on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. The transcript of this podcast episode is intended to serve as a guide to the entire conversation, and we encourage you to listen to this podcast episode. You can also access our summary, along with helpful links and audio from this episode.
Becky Johnson:
Well, I’m sure that I’m not calm all the time. In fact, I don’t think I’m really a patient person. But I think where you learn this is by observing people who do it badly. You see people who panic in certain situations, and you realize that nothing is ever as bad as it seems in the moment, and that if you just step back, and you think about the situation, you assess it, you look at what the alternatives are, and you try to calm people down, you’ll always end up in a better place.
Bridget Burns:
Welcome to Innovating Together, podcast produced by the University Innovation Alliance. This is a podcast for busy people in higher education, who are looking for the best ideas, inspiration, and leaders that will help you improve student success. I’m your host, Bridget Burns. Each week, I partner with a journalist to have a conversation with a sitting college president, chancellor, system leader, or someone in the broader ecosystem, who’s really an inspiring leader. The goal is to have a conversation to distill their perspective and their insights gathered from their leadership journey. Our hope is that this is inspiring and gives you something to look forward to each week. This episode, my co-host is Inside Higher Ed co-founder and CEO, Doug Lederman.
Doug Lederman:
We’re joined today by Becky Johnson, who’s the interim president of Oregon State University. She’s been at Oregon State – I think it’s about 30 years – and has stepped in to the campus’ top role to lead into a turbulent fall, but to provide a lot of steadiness to a campus that’s been through some stuff. Welcome to the program today.
Becky Johnson:
Thanks, Doug, and thanks for saying 30 years. It’s really more like 37.
Doug Lederman:
OK, we can round down. That’s fine, yes.
Bridget Burns:
Well, as a double Beaver, I am particularly grateful for your willingness to step in, especially in this time. We’re finding that a lot of leaders are stepping down and transitioning because it’s the hardest it’s ever been to lead. Those who are willing to raise their hand and step into what is the most difficult time is something that’s really worth noting. You also already had a really awesome job as the CEO of OSU-Cascades. Thank you for that.
Becky Johnson:
Happy to do it. My job in Bend at the Cascades campus was terrific, and being able to start to work at a campus – it’s really start-up – it was so entrepreneurial and had so much innovation. It really was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. I was getting ready to wind down there, and this is a great way to end my career.
Bridget Burns:
So then that’s perfect timing. I know it’s really difficult. I get called all the time by boards that are trying to figure out how to handle interim appointments right now. It was always a very difficult job, but I would say it’s the most difficult right now; because even if you are a sitting president, having a sense of what’s really happening and how to anticipate and how to lead in this moment is just very challenging.
Well, for those of you at home, I met Interim President Johnson when I was just a student, back 100 years ago. It feels so full circle to have you on the show now, and at this moment in time. What struck me, when I first met you – and one of the things that you talk to folks on campus about, Becky Johnson – is her ability to always project calm; very humble but calm at all times. The first question I wanted to ask you is: Where does that come from? For those of us who are at different points in our career and know the importance of projecting calm when things are not calm, but it’s just really hard, what has helped you, and what advice do you give for that?
Becky Johnson:
Well, I’m sure that I’m not calm all the time. In fact, I don’t think I’m really a patient person. But I think where you learn this is by observing people who do it badly. You see people who panic in certain situations, and you realize that nothing is ever as bad as it seems in the moment, and that if you just step back, and you think about the situation, you assess it, you look at what the alternatives are, and you try to calm people down, you’ll always end up in a better place.
I especially see this in younger leaders, and I especially see it in younger women leaders, because I think we all suffer a little bit from impostor syndrome. We have this fear of making a wrong decision or fear of failure, and it tends to create anxiety. You’re not calm, and you’re not analyzing the situation. My advice to those women in particular, but young leaders, is to always take time, even if it’s take a day. Sleep on this. If you can’t take a day, at least take a few minutes; but don’t just react to the situation that’s in front of you. You, as a leader, need to project calm and confidence and that you have this situation under control, and things are not going to fall apart.
Doug Lederman:
I’m curious. Does that steadiness, that nothing is ever as bad as it seems, also mean that you don’t get overly excited positively as well? I think there’s a pretty significant tendency I see for leaders to exaggerate the upside sometimes. Do you try and stay in that middle generally, in addition to trying not to let the negatives get to you?
Becky Johnson:
I definitely do. If you ask my partner, she would say that I’m never high-high or low-low. Sometimes she wishes I was a little more high, but I will say I was with the football team at Cal, and before the game, I might have said something about the Rose Bowl, so clearly was going to high-high, in this case as we got spanked by Cal. No, you’re exactly right. That’s just not the type of person I am in general, so it’s not hard for me to not go there. It’s really important to manage expectations in both directions and try to keep things on a steady course.
Doug Lederman:
The situation that you walked into there, people can read about it. We don’t need to talk about it a lot here, but there’s a lot of places, again, that are – as Bridget said, it’s a hard time, period. I’m curious how you prepared. You obviously spent a career preparing to know Oregon State and to be able to understand the place. What have been your main goals in trying to take over at a time when there has been uncertainty and turmoil, maybe more than normal? What are some of the strategies you’ve used and tactics?
Becky Johnson:
Well, our situation was fairly unique in that the previous leader was only here for about nine months. Unfortunately it was during the middle of COVID, so people didn’t really get to know him very much. I think that was difficult, then, to be in a crisis situation when no one has gained trust in you. No one knows you very well. My role, I think why I was chosen for the role, is because people do know me, and they’ve known me for 37 years at Oregon State University. That’s what was needed at this time. Interestingly, I was talking to the chancellor at Cal last weekend, and she said the same thing happened with her. She was invited to come back as the chancellor of the University of California because people knew her for years and years, and she was a trusted person to be in that situation.
I think that, in addition to being someone that people know and trust, you also have to restore the sense that the things that happen at the university that are important, which is teaching students and doing research and doing outreach – that didn’t stop. The president could be anyone, and those things can still go on and be successful. Our faculty were still doing amazing research. Our students were learning. Our extension folks were out in every county doing what they do. We needed to remind them of that. Things weren’t terrible at Oregon State University. Yes, we had a presidential transition, but things were really good, and we just have to restore that confidence and get people focused back on their day-to-day jobs that they do so well.
Bridget Burns:
I did want to ask just a follow-up. You stepped into a period of uncertainty. I’m curious about what advice you would give another leader who is about to do the same. Is there anything in particular that you thought, or you got feedback about, that was particularly useful in that, steadying up the ship? In Zoom world it’s really hard, but I’m just trying to understand, in addition to what you just shared, that sense of rebuilding and refocusing. Were there any particular activities that you thought you would suggest to someone who’s thinking about stepping into something like that?
Becky Johnson:
I think the main thing was to listen and assess. Find out what people are worried about. Find out what their greatest fears are, what their challenges are. Assess what we can do about them. We can’t do everything about everyone’s fears. You know, from the situation that we’re in right now with the pandemic, there is a sense to people where they’re going to the worst-case scenario all the time. You hear from a vocal minority of people who want you to eliminate every risk that could be out there, and of course we can’t do that. We have to figure out how to live with risk. You have to identify those risks, assess them, but then make the decisions to move forward where you can.
I think listening and assessing, and don’t come into a situation like I came into thinking that you’re going to have some grand, big vision, and you’re going to change the institution; and here’s our opportunity to go in a different direction. That’s not what the institution needs in that situation. We need to make sure that people are focusing on the direction that we were already going, which was great; and at some point, when I’m not interim, and the new person comes in, that would be the time to think about new strategies, new visions. I think that’s important in this interim kind of role, that you don’t try to change everything at the university in a short amount of time.
Doug Lederman:
A lot of the presidents we’ve had talk to us recently have talked about the importance of showing vulnerability, of letting people – and not everybody’s fully agreed on how much to do that, but I’ve been struck by how many presidents have talked about being willing to acknowledge how hard this time is for them personally. How have you approached that, and what have you sensed, the reaction that that has brought from the people you’re talking to?
Becky Johnson:
Well, for me, I like to talk about being authentic, and people say that back to me often. They feel like I’m an authentic person, probably a little bit different than bringing vulnerability to the job; but I’m always conscious that I don’t want to try to be something or look something that I’m not. I don’t look like most presidents, certainly don’t dress like most presidents, probably don’t act like most presidents; but everybody realizes that this is me. I’m authentic, and they appreciate that. Then that gives them confidence in what I’m saying. They’re not second-guessing. Am I really telling the truth, or am I just saying what I’m supposed to say because I’m a president? I think that authenticity just goes a really long way in terms of inspiring people to get onboard with you, to share the vision of where we’re going and have them get onboard and feel like they have a role to play.
Bridget Burns:
That’s great. I agree. The piece I wanted to follow up on was, you mentioned earlier that you actually learned a bit about leadership from watching other people not do it, potentially, well. I want to understand. COVID has been a very unusual time. I’m wondering if there are things that you have learned, good or bad, from watching other presidents navigate the pandemic, if you could share any insights you would draw from that.
Becky Johnson:
Well, when it comes to the pandemic in particular, I’ve felt like we got all consumed with planning – at our university and, I’m sure, lots of other universities. I felt like we almost got into planning paralysis. There’s lots of other things that need to be done, that administrators need to be working on, and all we were doing was planning. Usually we were planning for the worst-case scenario instead of the most likely scenario, because again, sometimes you have your general counsel in your ear that’s always telling you the worst-case scenario that you’d better look out for. We had probably hundreds of people involved in planning, nonstop, for the worst-case scenario that could happen. Of course, conditions kept changing, so every time the conditions changed, you had to go back, and you’d have to plan again.
I just felt like we got into a little bit of a all-consuming planning mentality. I’m not trying to put down planning, because you do have to plan, and this was a case where that was important. But I’d like to make sure that we are not in a paralysis where all we’re doing is planning and not remembering: What are we here for? What are the jobs that we’re here for, in terms of teaching students, and doing our research, and doing our outreach, and making sure that we’re not taking our eye off of that, always worrying about the worst-case scenario?
Bridget Burns:
That’s very true. I was just thinking about how the real challenge is how institutions do a dismount. It’s not getting back to normal, but how do we shift this new, weird muscle that we’ve developed? People were having COVID meetings every single day. Cabinets that used to meet once a month were meeting every day, and every task force was related to response. I think the question I’m interested in seeing if any leaders really have a strategy about is, how do we want to set the posture of our institution up for the future? How do we position ourselves to not just be firefighting, but actually, what are the things that we need to be doing, and then how we spend our time? I think that what we haven’t recognized is that our calendars have become so bloated with this obsessive focus on this moment, and we should give ourselves a chance to think about, how do we want to spend our time in the future? That’s just a reaction to what you –
Becky Johnson:
I guess I’d add there that we’ve also heard a lot from, I mentioned, the few vocal voices. There are always going to be people at your university that are worried about a very small risk of something happening, and they want you to do something about it. It means the vast majority of the people will be jeopardized or set back because we are trying to address every small problem for those few vocal voices. I think that’s really difficult for all leaders. Of course, most of us have bargaining units at our institutions as well, and those vocal voices tend to get magnified, then, through the bargaining units. It’s really a challenge, I think, to always see the broader picture and what’s best for the institution, even while you’re getting bombarded with some very loud voices.
Doug Lederman:
Talking about how to move, you’re in this period where the institution is pivoting. You’re at the institution’s helm at this time, where you’re starting to pivot; again, not out of the pandemic. As you look ahead at a place like Oregon State, what are the issues that you think are going to need to be front and center, and what should be on the institution's agenda, getting more conversation now going forward, maybe, than has in the past? If there are things that we should be focused on less than we were before, I’m curious how you think this moment has changed. You talked about the things that the university always has done and probably will continue to be, but are there things that you think deserve more attention now than they did before, maybe things what we should be focused on less?
Becky Johnson:
Well, I think the thing that we need to focus on more is getting more underrepresented students into our institutions of higher education. Never, I think, before has this been more important, because income inequality has just become a larger and larger problem in our society. The only way that I see that we’re going to address that issue is to get more students into higher education, get them on a career path and into a good job. UIA is at the forefront of this, and these are efforts that all of our institutions are working on, but I don’t see that we’re making progress as fast as we’d like to. There’s still a wide discrepancy between who goes to college and who doesn’t.
If I were going to say what we need to pay more attention to – and I think our state is doing a pretty good job of that, probably many states are – there never seems to be enough resources to be put toward that. One of the things we need to do more of is working with our K-12 partners on this issue, because that’s where a lot of these students are lost. You can’t get them when they’re 18 years old and say, “Come to college.” You’ve got to get them when they’re in middle school or before and get them thinking about going to college. Partnership with our K-12 institutions, I think, is going to be more and more important.
I just feel that the Alliance has been doing a good job of sharing information across institutions for where people have had success to increase access to higher education and increase success once they get there.
Bridget Burns:
Thanks for the shout out, of course; always happy to have that. I agree. I also think that there’s so much talk about adult learners right now, and everyone thinks that’s this new pipeline, because there’s just a shortage of 18- to 22-year-olds. If you look at the birth rate, it’s not where it used to be. We’re not even at replacement. I think a lot of institutions are thinking about adult learners as the way they will make up for enrollment drop, but they’re not doing the work to think about how they need to reorient and reimagine their institution to actually meet adult learners where they are coming from. I also think that you’re right. The K-12 partnerships, they’re very old school. We actually need a new way of working with K-12, especially as we’re seeing burnout and exhaustion and everything that’s happening in K-12. We produce the teachers. How have we changed our curriculum to adapt to what’s happening, to better support them? I think there’s so much there.
I think I want to turn just to our last few questions that are really about you as a leader. You have had a really unique career. You are someone who represents a vantage point that has rarely been seen, leading higher education institutions, and you’ve overcome traveling up the org chart of the university. I’m just curious about what leadership advice someone gave you that you have used throughout your career, that has been the most valuable.
Becky Johnson:
Well, leadership happened early for me because I was involved in sports, team sports in particular. I still credit team sports with a lot of what I learned about leadership. I think that you learn about how important confidence is. If people go into a competition, and the leaders aren’t confident, nobody’s going to be confident, and you’re not likely to win. The importance for leaders to display that confidence in all situations, I think, is incredibly important. The other thing is who’s on the team. As I got out of college and started making my own teams, when you’re playing city league and these other things, you get to decide who you want to play with. I spent a lot of time thinking about who are the best people that I wanted on my team, because I wanted to win.
Of course that is directly transferrable to all of our situations in life when you’re putting together a team. We’ve all probably read Jim Collins' Good to Great, having the right people on the bus and in the right seats on the bus. I just think that’s incredibly important as you move forward. Now, sometimes you get put in a situation where the team’s already there, and you’re put in as the leader. Sometimes you’ve got to move people around and find the right place for them, if they’re not in the right place already. Sometimes some people have to go. You need to get new people. If you don’t have the right people on your team, you’re just not going to be successful.
Then when I got to OSU-Cascades, I think it’s the first time I was actually in charge. I had been associate dean and vice provost. You’re always second in command, and here I was, in charge of this, although we always have a boss. No matter how high you think you are on the ladder, there’s always a boss, but I credit card make more decisions. There I discovered the importance of having a vision and starting to think about what it takes to reach that vision, and doing what I think of sometimes as reverse engineering; which is, I know where we want to be in five years, but where do we have to be next year; and then where do we have to be next month, and where do we have to be this week, if we’re going to make that goal in five years; and really laying that out.
Everybody has to know what that plan is. Everybody has to buy into it and stick to it. Then you have to celebrate your wins. You have to make sure that people know: We’re making progress. We’re doing great things. It just becomes contagious, and people get onboard.
Bridget Burns:
Those were great. Those are all solid pieces of advice. For those at home who don’t understand the team sport background, we didn’t mention this earlier, but Becky was a two-sport NCAA Division I athlete at University of Wisconsin-Madison. That’s also another rare background for a president. A lot of college presidents have never done a lot of sports. Becky, because you are in this position, and a lot of people look up to you, I’m curious if there is advice that you find yourself most frequently giving to others, whether it’s in the academy or otherwise. Beyond the advice we just heard served you well, what do you think you tell people the most frequently if they’re thinking about the presidency?
Becky Johnson:
I guess I’d go back to being authentic in who you are. Not everybody wants to be a president. Not everybody should be a president. Understanding your own goals, your own personality, what you’re suited for; don’t get into something that you’re not going to be happy in. When I was in forestry, I was in a program that was focused on forest recreation when I first got there. Parents would say, “I don’t want my kid to be in recreation. What are they going to do? They’re not going to make any money.” We would say, “Well, they could go get a degree in something that they hate, and then they’ll have a long career in something that they hate; or they could get a degree in something they’re passionate about and be happy for the rest of their lives. Maybe they won’t make a lot of money, but which path do you want for your kid?”
I think, in general, it’s finding a path that’s right for you and your personality and finding a way that it’s going to be rewarding. I changed positions. I’ve been at Oregon State my entire career, but I’ve changed positions probably five times. That was so energizing and so motivating, to move into a new position. Some people want to be a professor for their entire career. They want to study the next narrow thing in their discipline, and that’s great, because people need to do that. That wasn’t me. I really did get energized by taking on new challenges and have really enjoyed moving into administration and trying to figure out how to help other people be successful.
Bridget Burns:
Well, that is perfect advice, I think, for us to wrap this Monday. Thank you, President Johnson, for being with us today. We really appreciate a chance to learn from you. Doug, as always, thanks for being such an excellent co-host. For those of you at home, we’ll be back here same time, same place. Next week we will be interviewing the president of Morehouse, so stay tuned for that. Otherwise, we hope you have a wonderful week ahead.
[music]
Bios of Guest and Co-Hosts
Guest: Becky Johnson, Chancellor, California State University System
Dr. Rebecca “Becky” Johnson became interim president of Oregon State University (OSU) on May 1, 2021. Her appointment will last until a permanent president is in office. She works with students, faculty, staff, alumni, and stakeholders to advance the university’s Strategic Plan 4.0, and oversees the return to on-site and in-person activities for the 2021-22 academic year, with an emphasis on safety, equity, and programs addressing interpersonal violence and survivor support. Dr. Johnson joined OSU in 1984 as an assistant professor in the College of Forestry and advanced to become a full professor. She served as associate dean for academic affairs in the College of Forestry 2002-2005 and university vice provost for academic affairs and international programs 2005-2009. In 2002, she led the university’s efforts to write its first strategic plan, and in 2008 directed implementation of INTO OSU, a public-private partnership to drive internationalization efforts. Dr. Johnson served as vice president of OSU-Cascades in Bend since 2009. Under her leadership, OSU-Cascades progressed from an academic degree transfer program on the Central Oregon Community College campus to a four-year university now occupying 128 acres and able to serve 3,000-5,000 students. Dr. Johnson received a bachelor’s degree in economics from the University of Wisconsin-Madison, where she played on the NCAA basketball and golf teams, and a master’s and doctoral degree in agricultural economics from Michigan State University. She is OSU's first woman president. She and her partner, Lori Elkins, live in Corvallis.
Co-Host: Bridget Burns, Executive Director, University Innovation Alliance
Dr. Bridget Burns is the founding Executive Director of the University Innovation Alliance (UIA). For the past decade, she has advised university presidents, system chancellors, and state and federal policy leaders on strategies to expand access to higher education, address costs, and promote completion for students of all backgrounds. The UIA was developed during Bridget’s tenure as an American Council on Education (A.C.E.) Fellowship at Arizona State University. She held multiple roles within the Oregon University System, including serving as Chief of Staff and Senior Policy Advisor, where she won the national award for innovation in higher education government relations. She was a National Associate for the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education, and has served on several statewide governing boards including ones governing higher education institutions, financial aid policy, and policy areas impacting children and families.
Co-Host: Doug Lederman, Editor and Co-Founder, Inside Higher Ed
Doug Lederman is editor and co-founder of Inside Higher Ed. With Scott Jaschik, he leads the site's editorial operations, overseeing news content, opinion pieces, career advice, blogs and other features. Doug speaks widely about higher education, including on C-Span and National Public Radio and at meetings and on campuses around the country. His work has appeared in The New York Times and USA Today, among other publications. Doug was managing editor of The Chronicle of Higher Education from 1999 to 2003, after working at The Chronicle since 1986 in a variety of roles. He has won three National Awards for Education Reporting from the Education Writers Association, including one for a 2009 series of Inside Higher Ed articles on college rankings. He began his career as a news clerk at The New York Times. He grew up in Shaker Heights, Ohio, and graduated in 1984 from Princeton University. Doug and his wife, Kate Scharff, live in Bethesda, MD.
About Weekly Wisdom
Weekly Wisdom is an event series that happens live on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. It also becomes a podcast episode. Every week, we join forces with Inside Higher Ed and talk with a sitting college president or chancellor about how they're specifically navigating the challenges of this moment. These conversations will be filled with practicable things you can do right now by unpacking how and why college leaders are making decisions within higher education. Hopefully, these episodes will also leave you with a sense of optimism and a bit of inspiration.
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