Notes:
1) This interview in the Weekly Wisdom Series originally aired on May 3, 2021 as part of the University Innovation Alliance’s Innovating Together podcast, appearing live on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
2) This transcript is intended to serve primarily as a guide to the full conversation. We apologize for any inaccuracies and encourage you to listen to the podcast.
Click here to access our summary, along with helpful links and audio from this episode.
[Music]
Michael Crow:
For us, anyway, it’s been constant adaptation of the ship. And so we’ve been not only sailing the ship, but modifying the ship in an accelerated way at the same time. We have new sails. We have new rudder devices. We have new solar power. We have new understanding, and I think one of the things that the crew of the ship has really been focused on is this sort of always present, always engaged.
[Music]
Bridget Burns:
Welcome to “Innovating Together,” a podcast produced by the University Innovation Alliance. This is the podcast for busy people in higher education who are looking for the best ideas, inspiration, and leaders to help you improve students’ success. I’m your host, Bridget Burns.
You’re about to watch another episode of “Start the Week with Wisdom,” which, for those of you at home, if you have not seen this before, these are our weekly episodes where we conduct an interview with a sitting college president or chancellor. And we want to talk to them about how they’re navigating the challenge of this moment. We’re in a really unique time and we want to focus on their leadership and unpack how they’re making decisions, how they’re navigating and hopefully we’ll leave you with a sense of optimism, a bit inspired, and give you a bit of hope.
And now I’ve got the OGs here today, Jeff and our premiere guest. So I’ll leave it for you to be able to give a little bit of introduction. But in terms of Weekly Wisdom, I did want to share that we’ve now, like I said, it’s been our 39th episode and we’re really happy that we’ve been able to uplift and amplify a diverse array of voices – 62% people of color, 51% women of all of our guests. So that’s always been a priority for us and we’re just really happy that we’ve been able to not just do that, but also across all aspects of non-profit higher ed – every sector. So, yeah.
Jeff Selingo:
Bridget, not only am I returning, since my absence for most of the last year, but this week we’re also bringing back our original guest, which is Arizona State’s president, Michael Crow. President Crow has led A.S.U. I think now for nearly 20 years, we’re coming up, and he’s also chair of the University Innovation Alliance board.
Michael Crow:
Happy to be here.
Bridget Burns:
Welcome.
Michael Crow:
Bridget, Jeff, nice to see you.
Jeff Selingo:
Good to see you.
Bridget Burns:
We’re excited, and we know that you’re really in a great mood today, so we have no idea how this is going to go. This is fabulous. Well, first, I wanted to start off by, you know, a year ago we had a conversation with you about what it was like to lead. And you referenced a metaphor that was “leading is like sailing.” And you described the different types of wind conditions and what it was like, and that was just kind of very similar to your experience as a leader. And now, after a year of gale force winds, I want to know how would you update that analogy? What have you learned from it and do you have any advice you would give yourself a year in?
Michael Crow:
Yeah, thank you, Bridget. I mean, sailing meaning that it’s constantly – you’re blown by the winds, you’re trying to make forward progress, you have to tack to the north while you’re really travelling to the west. But you have to go north for a while to get to the west to take advantage of the winds. You have to be reactive to the waves, to the changes, to your crew, to everything. And so the advice a year into this using that analogy is for us, anyway, it’s been constant adaptation of the ship. And so we’ve been not only sailing the ship, but modifying the ship in an accelerated way at the same time. We have new sails. We have new rudder devices. We have new solar power. We have new understanding.
I think one of the things that crew of the ship has really been focused on is this sort of always present, always engaged. And so the other thing is this constant – this notion of constant engagement. The senior team as A.S.U. meets every single day now. We never used to meet every single day. We’ve met every – we’ve met hundreds and hundreds of times. This has then allowed us to accelerate our ambition for what the ship can be, what the ship can do as well as the, I guess I would say just to add to this, the detailed accuracy with which we can make adjustments.
I think the other thing that we’ve learned is to wait as long as possible to make a decision until you have as much information as possible before you make a definitive decision. So we decided, you know, not to close. We kept our residence halls open. But we modified everything we did when we made those decisions. So it’s making decisions as carefully and as judiciously as possible, allowing the sea conditions to be as well understood as you can possibly have them understood before you make a decision. So those are some lessons from this year.
Jeff Selingo:
So the last 15 months have been quite a disruptive piece. Not only around the entire society, but higher education, of course, right? And when we think about the history of higher education, you know, big changes have always led to an upheaval of how we think about it. You know, you have your book behind there, The Fifth Wave, this new idea of a new set of institutions. Kind of emerging on even before the pandemic. But does this pandemic give us a chance to maybe upend what we think of in fact the establishment in higher ed?
Over the last couple of weeks, I wrote a piece in the Washington Post a couple of weeks ago that talked about the record-low acceptance rates of quote, unquote “the most selective institutions in this country.” And I got a lot of notes from people saying, "Why don't we just forget about them and talk about a whole new set of institutions?" Well, what are those institutions and how can we establish that new establishment or that additional establishment coming out of the pandemic?
Michael Crow:
Yeah, I definitely think it’s not new in the sense of replacement. It’s new in the sense of additional. So what’s argued for in The Fifth Wave is the emergence of universities devoted to social outcomes as their measure of success. Universities – and you can’t have social outcomes unless you’re able to operate at some sort of scale. Unless you’re able to operate across the diversity of the society. And so what’s happened is that we keep falling back in time back to the British cultural model that we overthrew in the Revolution, which was that class determines all outcomes and your family rank is the single thing that you need to be working toward. And exclusivity in all things British are a part of the design of a lot of American institutions. OK, fine. We need a lot of institutions. We need thousands of institutions.
But what we now need are lots of new institutions. Institutions that can scale and be driven by technology. Can work with people wherever they are. Can help produce college graduates wherever they are in their life and help educate people across the entirety of their life. And so what we’re really hoping comes from this is the realization [audio glitch 00:07:04]. The technologies that we have now are unbelievable. The opportunities are unbelievable and if some people don't want to do that, that’s fine. No harm, no foul.
Some institutions have got to move in this new direction, or I can guarantee you the country will never achieve its democratic success. Will never achieve our competitive success, globally, economically, because we’re being outperformed. Education is scaling in other places. It’s not scaling here in the same way. We’re being outperformed in that most people that go to college in the United States don’t graduate. Most people that start college do not graduate. There’s no other place like that, anywhere. And so we’ve got deep, deep problems, and so we need new forms, we need new entities.
Jeff Selingo:
So if I’m sitting at an institution – obviously, A.S.U., other members of the UIA, have a head start on this, even before the pandemic. But if I’m sitting at an institution, now, that clearly is coming out of the pandemic in OK shape but I want to follow that playbook, right, of becoming this new type of institution, what is the framework that I have to start to think about in order to scale?
Michael Crow:
So, one, you can’t do it by yourself. You got to network, network, network. Two, you must find a way to embrace technology and embed technology, turning your faculty into what we now call at A.S.U. Super Faculty. They teach on campus, they create on campus, they’re engaged on campus, they have students on campus, and they’re influencing many, many other lives at the same time as a part of their normal everyday work. And so technology, networking, change your indicators of success away from how many did you not admit or how many did you graduate only, to what’s the transformation in your community, in your region, in the cluster or the ecosystem in which your college or your university is operating.
And then the other thing that’s kind of interesting for us is you got to stop thinking you can do it by yourself. Every time we talk to somebody else about some of the stuff that we’re able to do, people say, "Well, that’s really nice. We need to do that, also." We’re like, "OK, well, it took us ten years to get here. We could find a way to work together and then move forward in new and exciting ways going forward." And so, you know, the notion of colleges and universities are like isolated cottage industries back in the old Black Forest of ancient Germany, each doing their own thing and trying to do the same thing themselves, that’s just not the world, today, that we need.
Bridget Burns:
I’m seeing a lot of conversations about folks thinking about fall term kind of affair, thinking about the future, what’s next? Is this just the first pandemic, etc.? And what I’m wondering is, if you were giving advice to another institution leader and you’re suggesting types of topics they should be thinking about and talking about their team to really position for the future that you see, what are those things that are occupying your thinking and what you’re talking about?
Michael Crow:
Well, one thing we should just accept the fact that we’re only on a pathway to the kinds of goals and objectives outlined in the aspirational document called the U.S. Constitution. So I want us to think about it as an aspirational document. We don't need much convincing that we’re not near our aspirational goal. We’re not. We do not have equal justice. We do not have all kinds of things that we talk about in that Constitution. So then what we need to do then is like, well, what are you going to do about that? And so, for instance, any public university that’s not representative of the entire socioeconomic diversity of their region isn’t succeeding. Any public university that’s not representative of the ethnic diversity of its region is not succeeding. As simple as that. And so that would be most.
And so what one needs to do is in some ways talk less, do more. And so what I mean by that is start measuring yourself against those kinds of goals and those kinds of objectives. What I mean, then, to do that then, one has to be accountable for objectives. One has to start moving past this notion that it’s all about the rhetoric and all about the discussion – as important as the rhetoric and the discussion is, it isn’t. It’s about the actual performance of the institution against the societal goals and the broader aspirational goals outlined in the Constitution. And we forget that.
Jeff Selingo:
Mike, often institutions are moving within the herd because that’s where the rewards are, right? So they’re moving in this herd mentality because that’s where the rankings are, that’s where the students are. The enrollment comes with money in many states because it’s tied to appropriations if they’re a public or they’re a private. That’s where all the fundraising is. Right? So how do you realign the incentives coming out of this so that institutions move in this direction? Because in many ways, right, they’re not incentivized as leaders, either as presidents or boards to move in this direction necessarily.
Michael Crow:
Well, you don't really need university presidents or chancellors or people with vaunted titles like that if they’re nothing but railroad administrators. And so if all they’re doing is sitting around keeping the trains running on time, waiting to get the fuel, making the case to get more track, playing in a purely bureaucratic structure, you don't need university presidents and chancellors to run simple government bureaucracies. You don't need that at all. So I’m of the view that we need to throw out the notion of operating as public agencies and embrace the notion in the public sector of operating as public enterprises. That is, you seek resources in many different ways. You innovate in different ways. You partner in different ways. And so we can already see that the public bureaucracy modality is perfect for certain kinds of things like the army, the post office, and so forth. It’s not good for high-speed, adaptive, knowledge-producing enterprises who have to adjust to the totality and the complexity of society.
And so what we’ve got is people trapped in two boxes. They’re trapped in an agency model of the operation of the college or the university, or even in some of the private colleges and universities, they’re trapped inside an academic bureaucracy which must be the densest, tightest, most I don't know what to call it, most bureaucratically constraining superstructure of immense pressure ever created. And we have to free that, also. And so we need more differentiation, more creativity, more innovation and more enterprise behavior to actually give presidents and chancellors a meaning behind their titles and value behind their elevated salaries.
Bridget Burns:
Well, this is perfect. So I think we’re going to move into rapid fire. Because I know that you are someone that everyone wants to hear from and you often get asked a lot of the same questions. So I think getting to a deeper level. So the first thing I want to ask you is what was the best advice you received, personally, that served you in your career?
Michael Crow:
In my career? Think hard about what you want someone to say about you when you’re dead.
Bridget Burns:
That’s a good one.
Jeff Selingo:
What has surprised you the most about this past year?
Michael Crow:
The most surprising thing has actually been the negativity of the media and the constant searching for clicks and dollars by the media, which has not done a good job keeping us informed, has not done a good job of helping us to move our way through the pandemic, and is actually in some ways perpetuating fear, perpetuating negative outcomes. That’s been very powerfully negative and very surprising.
Jeff Selingo:
And, Mike, what do you mean by that? Do you mean the criticism of colleges reopening, for example, and things like that?
Michael Crow:
Not just that, but I mean the broader media. You know, well, you should do this, you should do this, you should do this. And now, as the pandemic moves into various levels of management in the United States, 24/7 now about all things Indian. And not much in that same media about adaptations and changes and positive outcomes. I mean, we’re graduating today, right now, 1,900 students. The most graduates we’ve ever had in a spring semester graduation. All through the pandemic. We’ve got the largest number of applicants we’ve ever had. The most diverse class that we’ve ever had. I mean, these are all things that are moving. The jobs that our graduates that have been getting the interviews, the moving forward with their life. I mean, yes, there’s all these things going on, but there’s also lots of other things going on, also, using just that narrow little slice of our own institution.
Jeff Selingo:
Bridget, just one quick follow-up on that. Mike, the Carnegie Corporation in New York, plus Gallup just came out with a poll recently, where almost half of parents said that they wished there were alternatives to four-year colleges. Do you think that this constant barrage of criticism of higher education, particularly over the last year, has impacted the discussion around value of higher ed? And is that a – it seems like a dangerous thing and how does higher ed reverse that?
Michael Crow:
Well, that’s sort of complicated. I mean, in the lower half of family incomes, only 15 percent of people graduate from college, anyway. In the lower quarter, only about eight percent graduate from college because it’s only unreachable. It’s culturally and financially complicated to attain. So it doesn't surprise me at all that people want other alternatives. So what they think of as colleges, “Well, I can’t afford to send my kid to X, Y, Z, private college because it’s $75,000 a year.” Or even the public college or the public university. And so the desire for more alternatives is a message to all of us that we’re not doing a very good job of talking about how one makes forward progress in their life across the broadest social cross-section of our society. So that doesn't surprise me.
I will say, though, we also did a poll through our affiliated center, the Center for the Future of Arizona, with the Gallup organization. And we asked what do Arizonans want – the seven-and-a-half million Arizonans? And it turns out there are ten shared public values, which are astoundingly positive, astoundingly progressive – not in the political progressive sense but progressive in the world that they want. And education is unbelievably important, and the environment is unbelievably important. And finding new methods of addressing inequalities is on that list of a shared public value. So we have a lot of commonality of purpose and commonality of outcomes. When someone gets a survey result like the Gallup Carnegie survey that says that more than half the people aren’t looking for college, that creates disruption when it should create opportunity.
That means that half the people don't even know what college education is, what it’s worth, what it can be for them, what it could mean. I mean, that’s the problem. The problem is mostly us, not them. All the surveys are them reflecting their concerns about us, and then there’s no attention on us who aren’t really getting the job done.
Bridget Burns:
I want to focus on to you’ve actually mentored quite a few folks who have gone on to very successful posts, including presidencies. And I know that a lot of people reach out to you for advice as they’re contemplating taking on a new role. What is the advice that you give most frequently to someone who’s about to become a president?
Michael Crow:
Consider yourself already dead and move forward. Meaning, you can’t worry about, well, is this going to work and how am I going to get the next job or how am I going to do this? And I can’t do this because I might get fired or whatever. Go ahead and do it and get fired. It’s probably worth doing. There’s people recently that should have done things and were fired for not doing them, and they might have been fired for doing them, and they would have been better off having done that in every possible way. And so – You’re familiar with some of these people, Bridget.
And so I guess the advice that I try to give to people is, you know, in a sense you’re selected as if you’re going into a situation where you’re the leader. The leader must sacrifice, the leader must do what needs to be done and the leader – if all you’re trying to do is to leverage your way to some other job or I got the presidency at, you know, East Pacific State College somewhere or whatever, and you really wanted to be the president at Pacific State College or at Pacific University, or whatever it happens to be, then you shouldn’t even be in this business. I mean, once you get into this track, you’re just an expendable leader.
So this book [unintelligible 00:19:03] Washington: A Life by Ron Chernow, I read it about three times. I just finished reading it again. Fantastic, unbelievable person and expendable leader, who was expended in his process of being a leader. Well, that’s what leaders need to do.
Jeff Selingo:
Mike, one of the things I miss about coming out to Arizona, since Bridget and I haven't been on a plane in a long time, is leaving your office, usually with a stack of books under my arm, or a recommendation of a stack of books. So what are you reading now or what are you watching that is teaching you about where we are in the world right now, or leadership, or the future, that you want to recommend to others?
Michael Crow:
I watch everything. I probably watch – I couldn't go to sleep last night. I probably watched like three movies last night just to get them in my head. But one book I think that’s really worth looking at – and I didn’t pull this out for this meeting but I’ve been spinning around again is Mission of the University by Jose Ortega. And this is an 80-year-old, 90-year-old book from a very early 20th century Spanish philosopher. But he asks things like the fundamental question. For instance, the reform of higher education cannot be limited, nor can even its main features be limited, to the correction of abuses. Reform is always the creation of new usages.
And so this guy got it. He’s a person of the pragmatic philosophical school. John Dewey was of this school. Richard Rorty was of these schools. Others were of these schools. There is a mission of the university relative to social transformation. I’m not saying that the universities he worked at necessarily got there, but he knew what he was doing. So I recommend this book. You can still get it. It’s not very thick. It’s very thin. Words are big. You can get through it pretty easily. And so that’s something I think is worth reading for anybody that’s in higher ed, if you haven't already done that or haven't heard of it.
Bridget Burns:
You always have like five, though, so, what other ones do you have? What’s the other one that you know about?
Michael Crow:
I think I mentioned before The Ministry for the Future there, by Kim Stanley Robinson. I’ve been giving that out to a lot of people. How do you design a ministry which is focused on nothing but the future? And this has to do with adaptation to global change, driven by climate and other things. So the opening scene, which is really quite traumatic, is – remember the breakdown of the grid in Texas a couple of months ago? Well, imagine that happens during a heating moment of high heat index? It happens in this northern India. Ten million people die in the first instance, where they lose their grid at the same time as they get this unbelievable heat wave and they just can’t make it through. And we say, “Oh, that would never happen.” Look up France in the early 20th Century with 30,000 dead one summer from a heat wave just in France, just then.
And so the reason for that book is thinking about how to literally design actions now that are in anticipation of things that are dramatically different going forward. I think that’s another good way to shape your thinking.
Bridget Burns:
We just got a question about the book. The book was titled Washington.
Michael Crow:
Yeah, Ron Chernow, C-H-E-R-N-O-W. Washington: A Life, the subtitle.
Bridget Burns:
Please tell us in less than 30 seconds the leadership lesson that you take from the movie Starship Troopers.
Michael Crow:
Oh, Starship Troopers is this old B-grade science fiction movie about these insects that attack Earth at some point in the future. I think the leadership lesson learned there is the furtherance of the fact that fascism is bad. And so it should be avoided at all costs. And, again, leaders in that movie, there, sacrificed like there’s no tomorrow. So high sacrifice, and fascism is bad.
Bridget Burns:
You’re promoting other books out here. Starship Troopers. Typically, do you watch sci-fi, get great inspiration and help people kind of rethink or reframe their thinking? Any other movie that for you has gotten under your skin, lately?
Michael Crow:
Ma Rainey’s Black Bottom is a fantastic movie if you didn’t see it. Particularly when you see at the end the murder of one of the musicians by the lead characters, played by Boseman. And it’s this senseless murder taken out in rage by a person completely defeated by the system in which another Black man is murdered by another Black man in this moment of rage. And the whole movie itself is just unbelievably revealing of the social complexities, not only of the era, but of our society as it’s continuing to evolve. It’s really a great movie.
Jeff Selingo:
So, Mike, I want to circle back to the media conversation we had earlier. Because as you know, I kind of straddle these both worlds, the world of higher ed and the world of media. And this week the Education Writer’s Association is meeting, virtually. We were on your campus a couple of years ago, but we have – I’m moderating a panel later this week, and one of the questions I’m asking the folks on the panel is what are the stories that we should be covering? If people are unhappy with the media coverage, especially of higher ed over the last year, what stories do you think we should be covering?
Michael Crow:
Well, it’s kind of weird. I called a student the other day that had just graduated from A.S.U. She lives down in southern Arizona. And I heard that she had just been admitted to the Mayo Medical School, which is a very difficult medical school to get in. And the reason I was calling her was to congratulate her. And I don't call every student that gets into medical school. We have lots of kids who get into medical school. But few that are single moms in their mid-20s, who never came to A.S.U. physically and graduated from our online biology degree.
And so the reason I bring that up is that we still have media reporters in higher education space that are – I don't know, they’re like nineteenth-century writers. They don’t realize that the world is changeable. They don't realize that an online biology degree can prepare a person unable to come to university to study biology, to master biology and to be admitted to one of the top medical schools in the country. And the reason I bring that up is that last year we got a snarky note from some dean of some strange elite medical school saying they never would admit anyone from an online medical school because they didn’t have any skills. They just took classes online sitting in their basement. That person was beyond stupid. Probably intellectually bigoted. And so the one thing that I’m just saying to writers is that when you think about education, you know, writers look at online and they write about OPMs. They don't write about outcomes. They don't write about learning outcomes as much.
I think, Jeff, you were telling me earlier that we still run into people that say, well, that we can, "Anybody that goes to a university as big as A.S.U. or Penn State or one of these other behemoths that are out here, how can they be any good?" In some ways, not all, but many higher education writers and most higher education institutions have no idea what it’s going to take to actually move the society to the next level. But they’re plenty able to talk about how schools that are moving in new directions are breaking from the norm and are maybe not doing the right thing. So – this woman’s name was Desiree. I was so excited to talk to Desiree and to learn about her particular choices and how she found the biology degree. I mean, there’s just a lot going on. And so the idea of college is much broader than people think.
Bridget Burns:
We did get some other questions in the chat that I will try and be the last piece that you need to wrap. Any last words of advice about leadership responsibilities and action, and then we will close the show.
Michael Crow:
You know, the best advice I can give you is, for those that are other presidents and chancellors listening or those that are working to help advance institutions of higher education, is that we live in a privileged class of people. You know, we must be present. We must help the society to keep moving forward. We must adapt. We must adjust, even during the pandemic or whatever. We must adjust to the transformation of American democracy. We can’t just sit and wait for things to happen. And so we have to be the adjustors. We have to be the drivers. And so we have to take risks, sacrifice yourself, move forward.
Bridget Burns:
All right. Well, thank you so much. This was great. For those at home, we see all of your comments in chat. This was a very exciting episode. Wonderful to have you, Jeff. Wonderful to have you, Mike. And we really look forward to chatting again soon. Thank you so much.
[Music]
Bios of Guest and Co-Hosts
Guest: Michael Crow, President, Arizona State University
Michael Crow became the 16th president of Arizona State University on July 1, 2002. Under his direction, the university pursues teaching, research, and creative excellence focused on the major challenges and questions of our time, as well as those central to building a sustainable environment and economy for Arizona. He has committed A.S.U. to global engagement, setting a new standard for public service. Milestones during his tenure have included establishing research initiatives such as the Biodesign Institute, the Global Institute of Sustainability, and the Center for the Study of Religion and Conflict; establishing more than a dozen new interdisciplinary schools; an unprecedented research infrastructure expansion; a dramatic increase in research awards; and attracting the eight largest gifts in the university's history. Prior to joining A.S.U., President Crow was executive vice provost of Columbia University, overseeing Columbia’s research enterprise and technology transfer operations. A fellow of the National Academy of Public Administration and member of the Council on Foreign Relations, he has authored books and articles relating to the analysis of research organizations and science and technology policy.
Co-Host: Bridget Burns, Executive Director, University Innovation Alliance
Dr. Bridget Burns is the founding Executive Director of the University Innovation Alliance (UIA). For the past decade, she has advised university presidents, system chancellors, and state and federal policy leaders on strategies to expand access to higher education, address costs, and promote completion for students of all backgrounds. The UIA was developed during Bridget’s tenure as an American Council on Education (ACE) Fellowship at Arizona State University. She held multiple roles within the Oregon University System, including serving as Chief of Staff and Senior Policy Advisor, where she won the national award for innovation in higher education government relations. She was a National Associate for the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education, and has served on several statewide governing boards including ones governing higher education institutions, financial aid policy, and policy areas impacting children and families.
Co-Host: Jeff Selingo, author, journalist, special advisor at Arizona State University
Jeff Selingo is an author, a journalist, and a special advisor at Arizona State University. He has written about higher education for more than two decades and is a New York Times bestselling author of three books. His latest book, Who Gets In & Why: A Year Inside College Admissions, was published in September 2020 and was named an Editors’ Choice by the New York Times Book Review. A regular contributor to The Atlantic, Jeff is a special advisor for innovation and professor of practice at Arizona State University. He also co-hosts the podcast, FutureU. He lives in Washington, DC with his family.
About Weekly Wisdom
Weekly Wisdom is an event series that happens live on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. It also becomes a podcast episode. Every week, we join forces with Inside Higher Ed and talk with a sitting college president or chancellor about how they're specifically navigating the challenges of this moment. These conversations will be filled with practicable things you can do right now by unpacking how and why college leaders are making decisions within higher education. Hopefully, these episodes will also leave you with a sense of optimism and a bit of inspiration.
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