Note: This interview in the Weekly Wisdom Series originally aired on September 20, 2021 as part of the University Innovation Alliance’s Innovating Together Podcast, appearing live on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. The transcript of this podcast episode is intended to serve as a guide to the entire conversation, and we encourage you to listen to this podcast episode. You can also access our summary, along with helpful links and audio from this episode.
Joseph Castro:
I know, with my presidential colleagues – including myself when I was a president – I really didn’t take much time during that earlier part of the pandemic. I very much encourage the presidents to do that, especially this summer. I was happy that many of them did that.
Bridget Burns:
Welcome to Innovating Together, podcast produced by the University Innovation Alliance. This is the podcast for busy people in higher education who are looking for the best ideas, inspiration, and leaders to help you improve student success. I’m your host, Bridget Burns. Each week, I partner with a journalist to have a conversation with a sitting college president, chancellor, system leader, or someone in the broader ecosystem, who’s really an inspiring leader. The goal is to have a conversation to distill their perspective and their insights gathered from their leadership journey. Our hope is that this is inspiring and gives you something to look forward to each week. This episode my cohost is Inside Higher Ed cofounder and CEO, Doug Lederman.
Doug Lederman:
We’re joined this week by Chancellor Joe Castro from the California State University System. Chancellor Castro became chancellor of the system formally early this year. He was appointed late last year after having spent some years as president of Cal State Fresno, and spent a bunch of years before that at the UC system. He’s been a Californian for pretty much his whole life, I believe. Joe, welcome to the broadcast.
Joseph Castro:
Thank you. Great to be back with you. I can’t believe it was February when we were last talking.
Bridget Burns:
I know. It’s wild. I was just going to say, I saw that you were the first Californian who’s served in this role. Is that true?
Joseph Castro:
That’s true, yes.
Bridget Burns:
[Unintelligible 00:01:53]
Joseph Castro:
Hard to believe of the California State University, but that’s true; also the first sitting campus president to be chosen as chancellor, so very interesting dynamics.
Bridget Burns:
Yes. That’s going to be incredibly helpful perspective, especially as you’re now in a position to try and talk with those folks. We were just talking that it’s all remote, so you really need that experience to be able to, I think, understand what they’re going through right now.
Joseph Castro:
[Unintelligible 00:02:20]
Bridget Burns:
You did just first join us in February, and I wanted to just start by asking you how you see things have changed for you and your campuses since our last conversation, so we can get a sense of where things are.
Joseph Castro:
Thank you. Well, a lot’s happened since February, as you know. We had announced last December that we were going to be predominantly in-person. When I spoke with you in February, I still felt like we could pull that off, but it was certainly looking very challenging. It has been a quite challenging period of time, but I’m really proud of our students and faculty and staff. We’ve been able to do that pretty successfully this fall. We agreed to a vaccine mandate, put that in place. We were able to get our unions onboard, most of them. We still have a few left who we’re negotiating with. We are predominantly in-person, so we’ve navigated it pretty carefully.
We have had a few cases, but we’ve managed it as well as possible, and so proud of our presidents. They’ve been so creative and resilient, and we’ve been following the science and doing what’s right to protect our students as much as possible.
Doug Lederman:
I think it’s Stanislaus that decided to stay virtual, correct?
Joseph Castro:
Yes.
Doug Lederman:
Interesting challenges, the challenges of figuring out how to balance. I’ve talked before about the role of the system, and trying to create commonality versus independence is something that Cal State chancellors have been wrestling with for a long time, trying to figure out that balance. Does the pandemic complicate that even more, just because it complicates just about everything in our lives? Do you see the pandemic having influenced that longstanding balancing act that the system engages in?
Joseph Castro:
Yes. Thanks, Doug. As a former president, I always appreciated that Chancellor Emeritus White did give us as much flexibility as possible to deal with local circumstance. I’ve tried to continue that, even though we do act as a system every single day. In terms of the pandemic, in California, each county has its own public health department; so in fact, it makes it quite challenging to have any kind of a one-size-fits-all approach to the pandemic. While our presidents and I have agreed on general guidance, in the case of Stanislaus, President Junn had consulted with her county public health department. There had been a spike. There had been relatively fewer people vaccinated, and she made the decision – and I supported her – to do that. Our other 22 campuses have moved forward according to their regular schedule. We’re about 80 percent or so in-person throughout the system.
Bridget Burns:
That’s super helpful. I want to shift to what you’re hearing and seeing from campuses, specifically around what you’re hearing from students. I think that, right now, we’re all feeling very disconnected. I think you sit in a unique position, where you’re hearing from what’s going on with students at a variety of places. Could you just give us a sense of what you’re hearing right now, and maybe anything that’s different from last fall?
Joseph Castro:
Yes. I’ve been spending a lot of time listening to our students, as well as our faculty and staff and alumni. In terms of the students, I’ve been listening carefully to their experiences. As you both know, the pandemic has been so incredibly challenging for many of our students, especially those from backgrounds – many of our students are first-generation college students, lower-income students. It’s really important for me to understand exactly what they’ve been going through.
I’d say that the emergency grants have made an important difference for them. Our emphasis on basic-needs programs, whether it’s food or housing or technology, have also been important. The mental health issues have really come to the fore. I hear about that from them and our faculty and staff. We, fortunately, were able to inspire more investment from the state in this area, and I think that’s going to help us to serve those needs.
Then, as it relates to virtual education, in general what I hear from them is that they didn’t like being isolated. No one wants to be isolated. They didn’t actually have a lot of issues with virtual education. Many of them really embraced it, and many of them still want to have virtual education courses, but they don’t want to have to be locked in their rooms. They want to be able to do it even on the campus. In general, what I’ve heard from them is, they want to be back on the campus. There are, of course, a handful that are concerned about that, and we’ve done our best to be as flexible as we can within our larger system to meet specific needs.
For those who continue to be unvaccinated, we’re trying to inspire them to be vaccinated. We’re not going to allow them to be on campus much longer. We’ve got some dates at many campuses where, in order to be on the campus and to take in-person courses, you must be vaccinated, unless you have an exemption. Those are some of the things that I’ve been hearing about, and I think it’s really important, as well, to think about the fact that it’s been so challenging for them. Our retention rates, I expect that we’re going to see some issues there. We didn’t a year ago, but I’m going to be seeing some data this fall. I’ll be looking carefully to see what we can do to address any challenges that have come up.
Doug Lederman:
That issue of virtual education, even when students are on campus, we always had some students who did that. I think your sense aligns with mine, that we’re going to see a lot more interest among students, even when they’re physically on a campus in the flexibility of when and where and how they attend. That has the potential to be pretty challenging for institutions, it seems to me. I don’t know if that means you have a section of every course that needs to be delivered virtually, or whether you try to have it doing a version of that high flex, where instruction’s being offered at the same time, both in person. That’s a, potentially, pretty big lift for institutions. I’m curious, your early sense of how your campuses are likely to be able to meet that expectation, if that’s where we’re headed.
Joseph Castro:
Yes, you’re right, Doug. That is a big lift. We’ve learned a lot. We became the nation’s largest online university overnight at the beginning of the pandemic. We didn’t expect that to happen, of course. We invested a lot in support for our faculty, and many of them are now seeking certification to continue teaching virtual education, and those decisions are really made at the campus level between our faculty and deans and provosts. What the presidents and I have agreed to is that we’re going to be student focused. To the extent that students are wanting more virtual education, I think we’re going to be as flexible as we can.
I’ll tell you that most of the mail I received throughout the earlier part of this year was from students and families saying, “Please, I want to be back on campus.” I know our student leaders tell me they even like taking courses and working together in cooperative spaces. I’m hearing more about that, as well. I think we just need to be thoughtful and as flexible as we can.
Bridget Burns:
I think that everyone is wrestling with that same issue. We’ll see, as we sift through the lessons from the past couple years. I did want to shift to something that’s really coming up right now, which is burnout. I’m hearing and seeing it. Someone posted something that said, “Burnout isn’t coming back, it’s just that it never left.” We’re just continuing to bottom out. People got a bit of a reprieve in July, but now it’s really happening. I’m just wondering. How are you, as a leader, looking at that issue? How are you talking about it? Have you seen any new approaches to addressing it, or are you considering anything? I think this is something that, in the past, higher ed could normally just get back to work, whatever. I don’t know that that’s possible right now.
Joseph Castro:
Yes, I don’t think that is possible. I think people like me need to really listen to our colleagues and to those that we serve. I know, with my presidential colleagues – including myself when I was a president – I really didn’t take much time during that earlier part of the pandemic. I very much encourage the presidents to do that, especially this summer. I was happy that many of them did that, and the same with my colleagues here in the chancellor’s office. I do think it’s important to do that. I did that in August for a bit. I’m trying to also show others that I’m walking my talk.
Then in terms of our employees at large, we have been listening to them in terms of our repopulation on campuses and in our chancellor’s office. To the extent it’s possible to have some flexibility as we bring more folks back to the office, we’re going to pursue those ideas and experiment a little, and see how that works. My hope is that that will help a little bit. I think, as I said in my State of the CSU address last week, flexibility and compassion are both really important guideposts for me. I’m trying to apply that here. To the extent that we can invest more in counseling and support for all those that we serve, I will certainly support that, as well.
Doug Lederman:
Can you expand a little bit on what flexibility and compassion look like? Have you had to change actual policies to provide more of that, or is it a way of treating people, or some combination?
Joseph Castro:
Yes. We are trying some new things here in my office. For example, we’re going to have some flexible schedules that allow folks that have jobs that they can do remotely, that they would do those a couple days a week, and then would be here a couple days a week. That also has the advantage of lowering the density in our offices. Our campuses are trying different approaches as well. Because I don’t serve students here, they have a different sort of challenge. We’ve agreed that we need to be student focused. That’s the guiding light there, but to the extent it’s possible to have flexibility, for those who are parents, if they have a child who suddenly has to quarantine for a period of time, then of course we should be flexible and compassionate there, or someone who’s taking care of someone.
It’s sad. This morning, as I was walking in, my colleague, he seemed a little down. I asked him what was wrong. His sister died yesterday of COVID. She was fully vaccinated, relatively young woman. It just shows how there’s so much we don’t yet understand about this pandemic. It’s really important, in my view, to be flexible, compassionate; and also, if we have to pivot, let’s pivot. I know that can be frustrating for some people if there is change like that, but we’ve pivoted, as a system, when we’ve needed to. We’ll continue to do that if we have to.
Bridget Burns:
Wow. That’s really – yes, that’s stunning. I’m thoughtful about the idea of flexibility and how that is not a muscle higher ed typically had; but now we need to flex it. We’ve learned a bit of it in the last year, but I know someone right now who’s working at an institution here in Oregon. Their kids can’t be vaccinated, and they’re not doing mask policy at their school, so they are going to have to homeschool the kids. The institution is not letting that person work from home while this is all happening. It seems that there are some institutions who believe we’ve got to go back to rigidity; had your year of that. It just really is unrealistic. We have to be more flexible. I think flexibility is going to be king, and it’s not just in this moment. It’s the future of the workforce, because it’s going to be what’s expected if you really want to retain quality talent. I think we have to learn it and actually integrate it into our way of being and not just dabble with flexibility as a system.
Joseph Castro:
I agree, Bridget. Reasonableness is another guiding principle for me. What’s reasonable? To go out of your way to adhere to some old rule, just because, that doesn’t make any sense to me. Just applying reason to different situations that come about, in this case you mentioned it would be eminently reasonable to give that parent flexibility.
Bridget Burns:
Yes. I want to shift to any lessons that you have seen or taken from observing other leaders in higher ed, good or bad, from the pandemic. I’ve learned a lot of lessons from governors in other states, but I’m wondering if you might have observed some; if there’s anything that has improved, you think, or evolved about your leadership, as a result of observing how others have led in this moment.
Joseph Castro:
Yes, I think so. It builds on some of the things that we talked about last time. I do think that there is a temptation for some of us to jump to a certain conclusion quickly. What I have found, throughout the pandemic, is, if I don’t have to jump to a conclusion quickly, I try to understand the dynamics better, try to listen to different voices before making a judgment. We did that with our vaccine requirement, for example; listened to different voices. I have found, throughout the pandemic, those leaders who are used to being fast on the draw, so to speak, that sometimes works against them.
Then also, I’ve found that the lack of flexibility can be difficult in terms of making decisions. I’ve tried, with my presidential colleagues, to practice that flexibility, to really focus on our mission and our values – what are we really trying to accomplish – and then to be more flexible in terms of the strategies and the tactics, realizing that we may have to pivot from one week to another on a vaccine requirement or some other kind of approach that we’re thinking about. Those are a couple of lessons that continue to be powerfully important for me.
I think that it’s important, in my opinion, for leaders of higher education institutions, and other organizations, to be as reflective as they can because of the situation we’re in. There is no handbook, at all, for leadership during this time. We’re writing it together. Those are just a couple thoughts this morning.
Doug Lederman:
It’s interesting you say that, because that makes all the sense in the world to me, and yet we have a lot of people applauding institutions for speeding up the pace at which they made decisions during the pandemic, suggesting that that was something that colleges and universities should do more of going forward. Again, like everything else important, it’s probably a balancing act. I’m curious in terms of the sense that higher ed moves too slowly is a common trope. I’m curious just how you’re thinking about that going forward, being reflective while also being decisive. They seem like they can be in conflict, but maybe not necessarily.
Joseph Castro:
Yes, I don’t think they are. I don’t think they were before the pandemic; but specifically now, the way things are changing so quickly, I do think these big decisions deserve reflection. I’ve also seen universities that have really stayed connected to a decision that may not be a good one, just because they didn’t want to switch up. For us, one of the big decisions we made, again last December, is, we were going to be predominantly in-person; but there were some months earlier this year where we really pushed that decision. Is that still reasonable? We decided that it was. We decided these are the things that we need to do to make it safe.
In addition to our vaccine requirement, we’ve required masks in classrooms, frequent testing. We did that based on advice from Dr. Carrie Byington, who’s just been a wonderful resource for us. She’d the head of health affairs for UC, and this is her field of interest. She’s supported us so well. I’ve watched universities who don’t want to bite the bullet on requirements or masking or testing, and now they’ve got cases galore. All that could have been avoided if they had listened to scientists like Dr. Byington. I’m thankful that, even when we’ve had some issues, we’ve had strategies in place to keep our cases and any breakouts as close to zero as possible.
Bridget Burns:
That’s great. I want to ask you about things that we should be focusing on. We’re spending a lot of energy talking about the pandemic, about virtual learning, spending a lot of energy thinking about racial equity. I’m just wondering if there’s something that we should be spending more time talking about as a sector that you might not be hearing as much as you’d like, given everything that’s swirling.
Joseph Castro:
Well, that’s a great question. I do think that, in our system, we’ve really got to focus even more attention on the equity gaps that have been so stubborn between our underrepresented students and other students, and our Pell Grant students and other students. We’ve been pushing very hard in those directions, sharing data in new ways, coming up with some new strategies based on what we’re learning across the country and what we’ve learned within our system, aligning our resources to those needs. For me, that would be job number one for the CSU, to eliminate those equity gaps as we lift up our graduation rates.
The push we’re making at the federal level, the double-the-Pell-Grant movement, will help, including DACA students. We serve among the most DACA students in the country. That will help, too; but I would say that’s number one for me and the presidents and our board of trustees. Thankfully our governor and the legislature here have invested more in that area, and we’re going to need to ask them for greater investment in these coming years. That will really help California, because that will mean that we’ll have tens of thousands each year and, eventually, hundreds of thousands, more graduates who are able to be leaders here in our state.
Bridget Burns:
That’s wonderful. I think you’re right. There’s so much noise right now. Focusing on that is long-term work. That’s not short-term work, and it requires a level of discipline. I want to shift to rapid fire. I have two questions in particular for you. One is around the best advice that has served you in your career from someone else, and then also I’m going to follow up with the advice that you find yourself most consistently giving others who are interested in leadership. What’s the best advice that someone else gave you that helped you in your career?
Joseph Castro:
I’ve had a lot of great advice. One that I’m thinking about today, just because it relates to other parts of our conversation, came from Jim March, who was my doctoral advisor at Stanford. We studied leadership together. He said to me, “It’s so important for a leader to do the right thing, even if they get knocked over. And if they do get knocked over, then you stand back up and get ready and get back on the horse, so to speak.” He really, at a very earlier part of my career, helped me to think about that in a way that I often reflect upon, because as we talked about earlier, there can be these other pressures to do something different for X, Y, or Z reason. But in the end, what is the right thing to do connected to mission and values? I’ve found you can’t go wrong, even if you are criticized or knocked down, so to speak, but you know that you’ve done the right thing. For me, that’s something I’ve been thinking a lot about recently.
Then for leaders who want to be presidents or chancellors, I just try to share with them what it’s like, the wonderful part of it, the deep meaning of it; and then the challenges of it as well, because I wouldn’t want someone to be confused about that. I’d want them to understand what they might be getting themselves into. Other mentors did that for me earlier. I try my best to be as authentic and transparent about what this kind of job is as I can with those who think they want to go into this field.
Bridget Burns:
That’s really good advice. I think about all the professional development that really works for folks, and it is about giving them a clear sense of what really happens. The last question – and you might not have an answer for this – is really, if you have a really hard day, a big day – say, the State of the Union day – and you are going to have to do something super important, is there anything that you think is required in your morning routine or how you prepare for the day that, for you, is essential to being your best?
Joseph Castro:
Yes. Well, given that I’ve been doing this for a while now, I know that it’s absolutely critical that I get a great night’s sleep. I know I’m much better with seven hours or eight hours than I am with five or less. That’s the bedrock for me, is really great sleep. Then I have some routines in the morning, my favorite coffee and music and reading material. Most of my exercise is in the evenings after dinner with my son. We take long walks, and that helps me clear my head for bed. Those are some of the strategies that I use, just trying to relax myself before a huge day or coming off of a huge day. I’m finding that there’s a lot of huge days in this position, so it’s kind of a marathon. Thankfully, I have a very supportive spouse. My wife, it’s our 30th anniversary today. Happy anniversary to Mary.
Bridget Burns:
Congratulations.
Joseph Castro:
Thank you. We have this little guy, Jess, who’s just keeping me on my toes, ten-year-old. They help me a lot. Those are some of the strategies that I use, as well as staying connected to some of my closest friends from elementary school. That also helps me, too.
Bridget Burns:
That’s fantastic and great advice for folks, I think especially right now. It’s not like you’re out on the road traveling. You might be, but –
Joseph Castro:
Not as much.
Bridget Burns:
– [unintelligible 00:29:14] means to prepare for big events. I definitely had to reinvent them for a big Zoom keynote. It’s not quite the same as going and getting the energy from the room.
Joseph Castro:
That’s right.
Bridget Burns:
Yes, congratulations. Thirty years, wow. I don’t know what that is in terms of the anniversary gifts, but I hope that you have that. Also, in this moment, how you create special moments, that’s a whole topic, celebrating in COVID. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day, then, to celebrate that.
Joseph Castro:
Thank you so much, Bridget. Thank you, Doug.
Doug Lederman:
Good to see you [unintelligible 00:29:52].
Bridget Burns:
It’s been wonderful having you, always great, and I just love your calm energy. I feel like I am now settled for the day.
Joseph Castro:
Thank you, great reconnecting.
Bridget Burns:
You too. For folks at home, we will see you next week. Thanks again for sending in the questions, and we hope that this has helped you get a little bit of perspective and, again, some wisdom for the week ahead. We’ll see you next week.
[music]
Bios of Guest and Co-Hosts
Guest: Joseph Castro, Chancellor, California State University System
Dr. Joseph I. Castro became the eighth chancellor of California State University (C.S.U.) in January 2021, the first Californian and first person of color to lead America's largest and most ethnically and economically diverse four-year university, with its 23 campuses, over 485,000 students, and 53,000 faculty and staff. Prior to his appointment as chancellor, Dr. Castro served as president of C.S.U. Fresno since 2013. He also worked in the University of California (U.C.) system for 23 years, serving as vice chancellor of Student Academic Affairs and professor of Family and Community Medicine at U.C. San Francisco 2006-2013. He previously held faculty or administrative leadership positions at U.C. campuses in Berkeley, Davis, Merced, and Santa Barbara. Dr. Castro has been recognized with awards including: the American Association of State Colleges and Universities' 2019 Excellence and Innovation Award; the California State Student Association's 2018 C.S.U. President of the Year Award; and the 2016 Ohtli Award, the highest honor granted by the Government of Mexico to leaders in the United States. The grandson of immigrants from Mexico and the son of a single mother, Dr. Castro was the first university graduate in his family, earning a bachelor's degree in political science and a master's in public policy from U.C. Berkeley, and a Ph.D. in higher education policy and leadership from Stanford University. He is a renowned scholar of leadership and public policy, and has mentored hundreds, including many university presidents and senior officers.
Co-Host: Bridget Burns, Executive Director, University Innovation Alliance
Dr. Bridget Burns is the founding Executive Director of the University Innovation Alliance (UIA). For the past decade, she has advised university presidents, system chancellors, and state and federal policy leaders on strategies to expand access to higher education, address costs, and promote completion for students of all backgrounds. The UIA was developed during Bridget’s tenure as an American Council on Education (A.C.E.) Fellowship at Arizona State University. She held multiple roles within the Oregon University System, including serving as Chief of Staff and Senior Policy Advisor, where she won the national award for innovation in higher education government relations. She was a National Associate for the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education, and has served on several statewide governing boards including ones governing higher education institutions, financial aid policy, and policy areas impacting children and families.
Co-Host: Doug Lederman, Editor and Co-Founder, Inside Higher Ed
Doug Lederman is editor and co-founder of Inside Higher Ed. With Scott Jaschik, he leads the site's editorial operations, overseeing news content, opinion pieces, career advice, blogs and other features. Doug speaks widely about higher education, including on C-Span and National Public Radio and at meetings and on campuses around the country. His work has appeared in The New York Times and USA Today, among other publications. Doug was managing editor of The Chronicle of Higher Education from 1999 to 2003, after working at The Chronicle since 1986 in a variety of roles. He has won three National Awards for Education Reporting from the Education Writers Association, including one for a 2009 series of Inside Higher Ed articles on college rankings. He began his career as a news clerk at The New York Times. He grew up in Shaker Heights, Ohio, and graduated in 1984 from Princeton University. Doug and his wife, Kate Scharff, live in Bethesda, MD.
About Weekly Wisdom
Weekly Wisdom is an event series that happens live on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. It also becomes a podcast episode. Every week, we join forces with Inside Higher Ed and talk with a sitting college president or chancellor about how they're specifically navigating the challenges of this moment. These conversations will be filled with practicable things you can do right now by unpacking how and why college leaders are making decisions within higher education. Hopefully, these episodes will also leave you with a sense of optimism and a bit of inspiration.
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